I made a hyper-engaging headphone with HD800S drivers

Discussion in 'Modifications and Tweaks' started by Bill-P, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    Don't really have anything to add, but I appreciate seeing stuff like this and getting to read about it. I'm sure it will be fascinating to see how these come along, whether it ever goes anywhere or not. People don't just do this all of the time, you know? I'm sure other people try things sometimes, but nobody ever talks about it. They probably try it, it goes nowhere, and they never put it out there. Ya'll should be proud. But I bet you won't ever own it! Really hoping to see this continue in one way or another regardless. Who knows? Even if it ultimately fails it might inspire something better.
     
  2. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    With 3D printing services being readily available nowadays, it should be feasible for anyone to buy the drivers, order the parts, and DIY assemble them. Or they could be made available pre-assembled for an additional cost. These could be the new Verum, sort of, kind of, maybe.

    This is really cool, and I'm enjoying following the progress. 加油!!!
     
  3. IUONA

    IUONA Thief that stole Bloom Audio gear

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    I’m fascinated by this. And I give @Bill-P a solid, though congratulatory, slap on the ass for it.

    Personally, I think the coolest thing I could see developed is a (mostly) DIY headphone that competes with the best at a significantly lower price.

    On that note, have you had to cannibalize HD800(s) or are the driver assemblies available at relatively reasonable prices from Senn?
     
  4. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    Listening to the "slightly tweaked prototype 1" on the Zana Deux today. It is promising.

    Resolution, speed, comfort, intimacy, ease- on the right amps. Likes tubes. I'm trying to avoid saying "plankton" but...

    Not sure that you need to try and make the stage bigger. It is smaller/intimate but detailed, open, and unconstricted-sounding.

    Just need to work on some low end. (Could work on upper-mids refinement if trying for greater amp compatibility, but not if it takes away from what makes it great).
     
  5. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    I was listening to the prototype on the Zana Deux yesterday for a while because I was about to send it out for more impressions. Then I found out we have to shelter in place for 3 weeks and I needed to pack a bunch of stuff up to take home.

    Granted, it has been years since I had RS-2, SR 325, HF-2, MS-1. And I have not heard Grados with the new deluxe pads yet. So I can't compare directly or from memory at this point.

    But I can say that on the Zana Deux yesterday, I really enjoyed this prototype. It was smooth, clear, and back to engaging without any rough edges. (I should start calling it Prototype1, for reasons I'll mention below.)

    Spending more time with Proto1 after I posted yesterday, I was wondering if the lack of some low end was helping make the rest of the experience so great (nothing masking/fattening up the sound so it is easier to enjoy the midrange+) or if was just the Proto design + 800s drivers + the amp working in great combination.

    There was a bunch of music that I simply enjoyed- female jazz vocals (Ricky Lee Jones, Madeleine Peyroux, Shelby Lynne) pop and other stuff (Laura Marling, SRV, Beck), electronic stuff like Shpongle, as well as classical. It's a different presentation than my modded HD800 but it allows you to listen and enjoy music in a different way. Does mids so well, without distraction. And with less low bass and on tubes it is not distracting nor fatiguing. Excellent clear voices (instruments and people), plenty of sparkle and transient attack. On some tracks bass seems plentiful and fine, but if comparing to other headphones or on certain tracks...you know it can be less. With all the great headphones I have around though, I appreciated what Proto1 was doing and was happy to keep listening (with the right amp in combination).

    Not sure when or how I can get these down to Marv but I do want some others to assess the current state and comment on them.

    This could be a potential fork: spin off Proto1 as a version with its own direction while @Bill-P is already talking about new modding materials and a Proto2. :cool: No reason there can't be a couple of different opportunities that come out of Bill-P's efforts. Again, worth pursuing, IMO.

    Several people have wondered what this project would sound like and where it could go. Well, Bill-P is still going and I still want to hear more too. Thanks to all for following, making comments, and encouraging @Bill-P along the way!
     
  6. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Oh yeah, sorry for radio silence. As you all should know by now, Cali went into "shelter in place" yesterday and work has been a bit hectic for me the past two days as we're a medical instrument company and... we are expected to release something by the end of this month while making sure to comply with orders and guidances.

    Anyways, the blessing is that USPS and other shipping services are not shut down, so I'm slowly getting new stuffs in, and that means... more things to play with!

    @Maxx134 hey man, I honestly don't disagree with you that "HD800 in HD650-style housing" is not really that great of an idea. I actually originally named the thread "boring" and I'm still standing by that, really. V2 or Proto2 of the headphone is to tweak what was in V1/Proto1 and try to pull more of HD800 attributes in. Let's put it that way. There's a reason I still have my HD800 (w/ HD800S drivers).

    I know better than to hide behind measurements and not admit that this thing doesn't sound like a Grado. It kind of does with the wrong pairing.

    I'll see what else I can do.

    Honestly, I'll still give the same answer now as I did on the last page: I'm just excited at the fact that I got a new (cheap-ish!) 3D printer in and it's actually allowing me to do fun stuffs. That's really where I'm at. I'm not trying to make the best headphone ever or even calling it the "endgame". If @CEE TEE or @purr1n end up liking that first creation where it is, that's great! It literally was the first thing that I was able to print out and surprisingly, it works (i.e.: it doesn't break apart too easily or sound like a complete disaster).

    I've left it at CEE TEE for the past week or so, and it'll go to purr1n, then @Hands most likely so that I can get feedbacks on where and how they would like to change the sound, as I feel there is much more that can be done, and my ears are really not golden. Then when Proto2 is done, I'll take Proto1 in, salvage the drivers (hopefully the housing can be left in one piece as a point of reference) for Proto3, and rinse and repeat.

    As an aside, I'm not sure the drivers are the exact same match based on the data that Sennheiser provided. Measurements would suggest otherwise, and honestly, the "resonator" in the HD800S is not really "all that". It's really just a piece of donut tape and some piece of cloth/paper on the bottom. That's it. Not a tube, nothing amazing. I tried swapping the spider of the HD800S (which contains the donut tape piece) over to the HD800 housing with a similar piece of carbon paper on the bottom of the aluminum housing, and it honestly did not really do anything obvious to measurements.

    @sorrodje's SDR probably does more to the HD800 drivers than the "resonator" Sennheiser put in. So I'm inclined to believe the differences may be a bit more in-depth than what we can perceive with the naked eyes. If you deem the HD800 drivers to be amazeballs, then I think you'll find it at least possible that perhaps Sennheiser really did change something else with the HD800S drivers. For all I know, it just sounds to me like it has "moar bass" than the HD800 drivers. And based on @CEE TEE's feedbacks, I think I need even moar bass in Proto2 than Proto1.
     
  7. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Sorry, last post was getting long and I was hoping to address this as well since many are probably curious:

    I was going to post more details on this but... I've learned from my mistake the last time. I posted some HD580 measurements on Head-fi (foolishly!) and thought that they were cool to look at but nooo... for some bizarre reason, people took the measurements as gospel and literally drove HD580 to extinction on eBay. Prior to my post, HD580 could be found for like... $80 - $120 or whatever. After my post? They went up to $200! Then eventually, they are where they are now: either on par with HD650, or more, and $200 can only get you a very beat-up pair. I saw a HD580 Jubilee for freaking $800 at some point! :bow:

    So I'm not going to say much more on where or how you can obtain these parts due to that reason. Please understand that I'm not really trying to hoard the knowledge (I don't plan on making more of these headphones to sell, honestly!), but that I'd prefer to not potentially cause prices to rise for everyone in the future.

    Hell, I feel even posting this much is already saying too much!
     
  8. IUONA

    IUONA Thief that stole Bloom Audio gear

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    Hm... Understandable. That would suck if the supplies ended up skyrocketing in price because folks go nuts with it. I remember the HD580s surging in price & I didn’t understand why, but was pissed off by it since I wanted to get a coupe for gifts. So thanks for that! Ha
     
  9. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Okay, I actually had to wait a bit for this shipment to come in before I could verify this potential "problem", but... it would seem Sennheiser has traditionally shipped HE90 pads that are intentionally mismatched.

    Here's what you would get if you purchase HE90 pads from Sennheiser. They will come in a pair and measure like this:
    [​IMG]

    And here is what you would get if you purchase 2 pairs of HE90 pads from Sennheiser, measure them, then pick the closely-matched ones in pairs.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So... I actually was very curious about this ever since I saw and listened to @n3rdling's headphone. The two drivers actually were designed to be slightly different (one had a hole, the other didn't). The end result was still that they had pretty good matching, but I thought the mismatched design was interesting.

    Now I know why.

    Edit 1: here's sorrodje's measurements of a pair of HE90. I also thought that the slight channel imbalance here looked interesting.

    My guess? Sennheiser actually also did not design the HE90 to be an even match from left to right either. What will that do? I have no idea... But you can just look at the measurements above and draw the same conclusion: they did not just cause this mismatch because they are incompetent or because it's a freak accident. It is very intentional. The pads on the "same side" measure so close to one another that they might as well be the exact same thing.

    And yeah, this imbalance also exists in Proto1 if you'd take a closer look at measurements that I posted. It looks a bit less pronounced because I'm actually tuning both sides slightly differently to account for the slight FR difference (and also due to graph scales). I thought it was actually due to the 3D printer causing the shells to be different, but nope, it's actually the pads.

    So what does this mean? Well, if I take Proto1 in and use matching pads (the bassy pair), I think Proto1 will kind of be "fixed" in some ways. Proto2 will end up using the other pair of pads and have a completely different tuning altogether.

    And both will end up being "relevant" due to the difference in pad design.

    As an aside... I don't mean to "tease" but Proto2 kind of sounds "less boring" to me. \/
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  10. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Very interesting and, until last year, i was using my IEM's with different filters because it sounded better to me overall, although, of course, with that small imbalance.
     
  11. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    Interesting re intentional pad imbalance. Before asking if they were marked L/R, I goggled and found this ancient thread on HF.

    This guy seems to be saying the pads have a front/back orientation, marked by Xs at the bottom. But you could put the Xs at the bottom, swap them L/R, and then the thick part would be at the front. From photos the HE90 cups look symmetric, so how would you know which pad goes on which side?
     
  12. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    Picked up Proto1 today, hope to do a dead drop for @Bill-P soon...
     
  13. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Well, so I took a closer look at the pads and honestly, I'm not seeing what he's seeing. The pads still essentially measure very differently regardless of orientation (if the thickness mattered, I could have mounted the same pad upside down and saw something different). I'm inclined to believe Sennheiser may be using a different foam density or something. Otherwise the pads look almost indistinguishable to me.

    Ah well, in any case, at least I know I'm getting consistent measurements by using a specific pair of pads, so buying 2 pairs still gives me 2 pairs of identical pads.

    ----

    Oh, and having said that...

    [​IMG]

    I've completed V2. No need for the speaker cloth this time, and the reason being...

    [​IMG]

    Look, ma, less shouty!

    Yeah, I somehow made the thing less shouty. It does sound like how it measures... relative to Proto1. Essentially, what happened was that I pushed the driver further away than with Proto1. Measurement-wise, this seemed to slightly drop the region between 2-5KHz. Also of note is that I made sure this comparison is made with the "same pad" due to the pad problem I highlighted above. I'm using the "bass-light" pads this time and I'm decreasing the permeability of the filter screen in order to bring up bass. As a result, it kind of "looks" like I'm bringing it up to par with Proto1, but the filter is much thicker and much less permeable. The difference is about 1-2dB but it is pretty audible to me... considering that Proto1 needed the speaker cloth as well. Oh, and one material that was in Proto1 that I couldn't reuse is... the middle layer of medical masks. It was quite a struggle to find something similar, and I settled with a combination of tissue paper + fiberglass.

    ...that and cue the ugliest headband ever, but... hey, it does the job! :)

    Proto2 to me now sounds... interesting, less boring than Proto1, which was admittedly pretty thin and lifeless on the wrong system, as @CEE TEE hinted at. I didn't want to proclaim it as being a godsend when it didn't even sound close to what I wanted (admittedly, this is why I said it was boring initially). Proto2 is much closer to what I want, and in fact, I think at this point, I can comfortably live with this and not continue to tweak it further. In short, this is something that can replace at least one of the headphones I use regularly. Not to hype it up but... it just suits my tastes now.

    So... what's next? I think at this point, I'm going to call it "done" on chasing after an HE90 clone. Tweaking it further may help, but I'm just hitting a brick wall a different way. Also overall, this design is pretty costly to recreate: it costs one pair of HD800S drivers, plus two pairs of authentic HE90 pads, plus a bunch of other things. I don't think that's reasonable. I'm currently working on a next design that's not necessarily a V3. This will accommodate Brainwavz pads and such that can be mounted on a lip and also have a proper driver mount that's not snap on. The end goal is to see if other parts can be substituted in, and heck, if something else other than HD800S drivers may work.

    Too bad COVID-19 is keeping us apart, otherwise I'd meet up with CEE TEE, and we'd have both Proto1 and Proto2 to compare. I know which one I'd prefer already, but I'd love to have his take on it. If CEE TEE also ends up preferring Proto2, then... I'll take Proto1, salvage the drivers, and make another Proto2 (oh yeah, the capsules can't be reused, sadly), then... that headphone can go on a loaner tour. Hopefully all of this can happen soon!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  14. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    * Start's to take apart his HD800's. *

    Seriously i love the way it looks, it looks "raw" but at the same time it has a bit of finesse (not counting the headband).

    I am glad that you will continue to try to make something a little more affordable.
     
  15. Beltrix

    Beltrix New

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    ...any plans to reduce costs by replacing the medical mask with pure platinum or something else cheaper?
    :)
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    OK. Reality check time which @Bill-P has given me full permission. There are with the first version with the Fostex headband. The second version was brighter, but I couldn't measure on the EARs because the headband broke during shipping. I am calling this the BP800.

    Subjectively the headphone sounds evenish without any major bumps or dips with the exception of the mid treble to last octave ,which I felt there was quite a bit of emphasis, and the bass, which was on the lite side. The BP800 definitely does not have any of that trademark HD800 warmth plus 6kHz and overall elevated highs. The HD800 sounds light and zippy and bright. Sony Qualia 010 anyone? The Qualis 010 was such a pretty headphone!

    BP800
    Frequency Response
    1/6 octave smooth
    Mini EARS with SBAF compensation
    upload_2020-8-7_20-17-48.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here is the flat plate coupler with a rudimentary compensation to make it somewhat comparable to the EARS.

    BP800
    Frequency Response
    1/6 octave smooth
    FPC with SBAF compensation
    upload_2020-8-7_20-26-31.png
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    BP800
    CSDs
    FPC BP800 L.jpg
    FPC BP800 R.jpg
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    My overall thoughts are this:
    • Tone down the highs from mid-treble and up.
    • I don't think the sheathing material is working effectively to keeping the bass inside the cup. At least the roll-off is gradual. Gotta hand it to the Sennheiser guys that they figured out how to do this with their materials.
    • I tempted to say move the driver in (that usually changes the low to to high tilt, but I am hesitant to do so because I think I have an idea of what @Bill-P's vision: a super open expansive light and fast headphone.
    • I do prefer the V1 where the measurements are shown here.
     
  20. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    Extension in the lows looks pretty good. What does the distortion profile look like? Any cleaner than HD 6X0?
     

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