Schiit (MultiBit) Bifrost

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by FlySweep, Oct 2, 2015.

  1. redrich2000

    redrich2000 Facebook Friend

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    So what does that mean for 2015 4490 units that were upgraded to MB (in 2016)
     
  2. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Upgraded in 2016? You have the A1 card. All A2s have a serial number starting with the letter B, including ones sent for upgrade.
     
  3. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    My Bifrost serial starts with 0. No letter at all. I think it started as original Bifrost, with the 4399. Then had the Uber Analog 4439, then the 4490 when I bought it. Then I upgraded to the Multibit.

    At some point the main boards went through a silent revision that the newer B that was slightly different for the power supply. The older boards could not have this new firmware change and still remain close to the Modi Multibit.

    Now if I could on get my Unison beta card back, it will have every Bifrost upgrade available.

    Note: Once you go Multibit you can't go back. I tried the Uber Analog 4499 card back in one time and nada.
     
  4. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    I know it's all about the implementation but I would love to hear more about the latest 4499 chip if you can elaborate more please?.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    He never tried the latest AKM4499. I think he meant the AKM4399 upgrade on the Bifrost.

    The AKM4499 is AKM Velvet latest and greatest that measures around 6db better in terms of SINAD compared to the prior TOTL. Parts are not cheap and it's being used a ChiFi DAC or two. Folks at ASR might have heard them, but no one here.
     
  6. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    I ordered a D90 for the memes and because Torq said it wasn't shit, which made very curious to see a ChiFi DAC that wasn't Holo Audio using high-end components that ASR would call anyone else out on for wasting money.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    What level of wasn't shit did @Torq say it wasn't shit?

    Was it an SMS message to you directly saying it wasn't shit
    Was a post saying in no uncertain terms it wasn't shit
    Or was back and forth in the details with a final conclusion that it wasn't shit
     
  8. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    It'll be a lot easier to just post the snip of it:

    Torq's opinion.PNG

    I'm not defending Topping or even saying Torq is the last word on anything, but I found it amusing and it's an easy sale on head-fi.

    I don't have THAT much confidence it's as good as the RME's dac section, which is why I posted an ad to find a dac1541.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    "I'd rather have the RME" ... considering Modi 3 was 94% of the RME.

    I think the main question people want to know if whether the AKM4499 Velvet based D90 will still hit like a wet noodle? With the specs, I can imagine the D90 resolving like a mofo, but Torq didn't mention this.

    @Psalmanazar almost immediately picked up on this - but since I've had more time to absorb the AKM Velvet sound, I've come to the conclusion that I just don't feel any of this "Velvet" presentation is worth more than $150, maybe $300 for a balanced version that uses those slammin' nexgen balanced opamps in the Convert-2 or Bifrost 2.

    Resolving yes, deep stage yes, but that wet-noodle and pushed back mids (which make the fuzzy highs even more weird), ugh.
     
  10. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    That's fair. I didn't hear as much of the Velvet-ness with the RME as I did the Modi 2u, as well as it just being a lot more detailed than the Modi 2u. There was also the features, which is what made it a good product overall for me. D90 is just a dac though, so I'm curious to see if that value still somewhat holds up.

    I took that as Torq choose the RME due to the sheer amount of features and flexibility it has compared to the topping that just has "the dac." It ultimately doesn't matter much either way, as the Topping D90 has to compete with a used RME, Bifrost 2, used Gumbies from very, very kind people, the 1421 and the rare Dangerous Source. Meanwhile, due to being new and the shipping being super frustrating, the Topping D90 retains most of its value used, which doesn't necessarily mean it actually competes.
     
  11. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    @purr1n was correct. I mistyped the AKM number. I had the 4399 and upgraded to the Multibit.

    What I found is that the Multibit had much smoother response, espcially in the mid-range. No more grain in the vocals. A little more space around the instruments. A much more involved sound. AKM chips though keep getting better and better and closer to that multibit sound IMO.

    The downside was that it was a bit more lean in the bass. It kind of lost some impact. Although it suited my Dynalo -> HD650 quite well, as both those can warm things up a bit.
     
  12. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Modi 3 doesn't have the gross lofi soft, digititus RME house sound. The Modi 3 is just warm, unbalanced, and a bit veiled. RME is awesome for digital. Anything conversion or analog, hell no. I believe one guy has always designed everything for RME. His way or the highway. Their cards and digital interface dongles are unbeatable. The RME Babyface Pro is a bus powered 2 channel recording interface that f'ing works in a giant middle finger to Behringer and Focusrite Scarlet. Yeah it is super veiled and soft and treble is fucked but... it is usb bus powered, works on most computers without a ton of optimization, and the pres have clean gain. No wonder it sells a lot and they can get 900 bucks for it. Anything else analog from them? There's not really any point to buy it imo.

    Chi-fi would f**k it up and has no resolution. Nobody who knows what they are doing is willing to implement a 50 to 100 dollar chip because that affects the build of everything else and the chip isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. The clock, powersupply, analog stage, board layout, filter, and computer driver are more important.

    Manufacturers specs are bullshit. THD+N for 1khz sine wave means jack shit for overall measurements. Pink noise means nothing. Something form the 90s that measures with -90 db thd+n at 1khz can easily beat chifi. Chifi is not really gonna f**k with Lavry. Lavry beats China. Yeah one is newer with more numbers but ibut it's bullshit. I don't care if UAD made it at a CHinese OEM with really good numbers. Only good UAD converter is the unobtanium UA 2192, which was desigend by the Burl guy and MADE IN AMERICA. They couldn't sell that in a Guitar Center with a bunch of plugins that are free profit on top of it.

    Topping is going to just be awful bullshit compared to made in the USA interfaces that start at 600 bucks and do it all reasonably well. You can't design a new converter overnight. Getting more detail from one component with spec sheet opamps and an expensive regulated SMPS doesn't happen overnight. The guys who are the best of the best take decades to design something new. Even RME for how much we hate on it. Something like the Convert 2 was years in the making and yes the treble was designed to sound like that. They don't slap random meme components on a pcb and leave anything to chance. The chip, analog parts, board layout, power supply, and filter were carefully chosen and tuned. The same with all these guys. Yeah the lower end Apogees and the MOTUs are built to a price but they are sure tuned well.

    The coolest stuff currently made with AKM chips is Burl, which use old school AK4399. Metric Halo is probably the clearest with the ancient 4395. I can't wait to hear the new Burl DA4M someday with the cleaner discrete opamps.

    Anal Shit Rectum has actually tongued some decent boxes but they will never be shilled. There is no f'ing way this Topping shit is as clear as Lynx. The ones I heard were more veiled and less detailed than Modi 2U with the wal wart. He wouldn't recommend the MOTU AVB stuff (best bang for buck for more than 2 channels on EARTH) because of random ass inaudible by God himself bullshit and they definitely sound better than 99.999% of what he's measured. I've heard from a few people that the Pro-Ject 9038 isn't bad either but anything with that many filters is pretty much bullshit and he doesn't recommend that despite it being 400 bucks and supposedly not dogshit.
     
  13. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Nice breakdown of current interfaces.

    However you can't compare $1,400-$3000 DACs to $99 ones. Same goes for $99 interfaces vs the Babyface at $900, so please let's not go there. Pro gear and interfaces have their place and RME have kind of dipped their toe in the HiFi world, but we still have to consider price, use, and feature set.
     
  14. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Yeh you can. I just did. The Modi is better than the Babyface Pro for DA. Is the BFP worse than a Focusrite Scarlet or Apollo Twin? No it kicks their lofi asses. Is it worse than the Modi? Yeah. Is the Modi actually good? Not really. It’s okay. It doesn’t hang with what it is being offered for a few hundred dollars but it is one Benjamin.

    Right now MOTU and SSL just repackaging most of their better converter parts (the parts are cheap and they recouped all development costs years ago) into bus powered boxes for 200 bucks. They had the tech to do it this Crazy value move. Motu is even made in the USA. Like Schiit it proves that Chinese gear is all overpriced crap and these other companies who outsourced manufacturing are just facing long term reliability nightmares and emphasizing short term profit while taking jobs away from the us economy for the personal profit of their shareholders and executives. The bus power will kill detail and size but headphones don’t need anything even as good as those bus powered things. The scaled down. Rando garbage idiots can’t do this. AVB and Alphalink converters they are offering are a giant f**k you to traditional budget gear and chifi if anyone can use the outputs on them. Yeah you can pay peanuts for diy gamma dac, 100 for a modi or Sdac for cans and budget hifi rigs or 400 to 2000 bucks for Computer use better interfaces (apogee element and up, real motu AVB, even the Focusrite clarets are not awful) with real power supplies, better drivers, and enjoy the sonic benefits (you should If you care about detail or are actually using them to record or mix intensive projects) but the basic sound is there for 100-200 something bucks. This is the scale down from better stuff. They didn’t start out making junk like f'ing Topping and SMSL. The first thing Schiit made was the og bifrost and Then the bifrost Uber was actually good. Yeah I think the later versions fucked shut up but the non multibit modis are less tonally fucked and cheap. Most audiophiles and Internet naysayer randos (objectivists included) and guys producing edm, computer metal, digital distortion punk, modern pop, cloud rap, don’t give a shit about detail and accuracy or even sounding good anyway.

    the modi is a hundred dollars, not total shit like a topping, and is being sold to headphones users. All headphones have totally fucked up treble. The driver is breaking up. Warm and veiled isn’t that bad for cans.

    Cheap shit sucks but it doesn’t correlate with quality. The Modi 3 is 100 dollars and doesn’t suck total ass. The RME dedicated 2 channel converter is 1000 to 2000 dollars has more wrong with it than some veil and warmth. There’s no point to buying it unless you want to eat shit and like it. Yet idiots from reddit and head fi are still eating it up. A baby face pro has a point. It has slightly worse sound than the Adi 2 stuff but.... it does a job. It doesn’t have to sound good and perfectly accurate to source. An expensive dedicated two channel converter is bought to make whatever is run through it sound super accurate or sound better. If it doesn’t sound more accurate (this isn’t a numbers game. Sorry objectivists losers with erectile dysfunction) or make things run through it sound better (most boutique hifi converters try and fail at this. Some of the hyped stuff that succeeds are sonic frontiers, thetas, Schiit if you like the sound, Lavry bass, most burl, prism FireWire and usb boxes, old apogee, etc) there’s no f'ing point. Some other dacs try to be both more accurate than most hifi and multichannel junk and sound betterers like dangerous and most nu apogee. Most of the sound better dacs are also more accurate in many ways than the numbers game dacs. RME is an “it doesn’t sound totally painfully fucked up anymore and doesn’t melt so let’s just release it” dac.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  15. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    My point is that these manufacturers scaling down designs are doing you a favor. Chifi wants to rip you off. RME is like “wow they think we sound good? Buy it guys. It works as advertised on the box.”
     
  16. neomax

    neomax RobS / hinterlander

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    what I look for in a converter is what is most accurate to the recordings themselves. too many converters are so heavily colored that impart their own sonic peculiarities that either enhance certain frequencies to appear more detailed or smooth out harshness or etc.

    the only converter that ive heard that tries to be as faithful to the recordings is the original yggdrasil

    the schiit Multibit stuff like my yggdrasil a1 has been the closest to the recordings that i have but it does unnaturally emphasis certain frequencies in the midrange and treble as well as very forward staging (doesnt bother me) and boomy bass.

    it seems you hate headphones psalmanazar. they have their place. are they speakers? no. but you can still get headphones that have high resolution like the sennheiser HD800 series. so the converters still matter with how much they can retrieve in the recordings. a high resolution converter matters. its not going to matter on a pair of audio technica m50x.

    hifi converters like schiit and others are probably soon going the way of the dodo. what will be left in the next decade is chinese made junk and pro interface gear and hybrid equipment for pc gamers. there doesnt seem to be an interest in converters among the young audiophiles nor care for any kind of fidelity and that makes sense since modern recordings arent high fidelity anymore.
     
  17. scottcw

    scottcw New

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    I hope this is an acceptable place to post since there are many Schiit threads.

    My intro post for my background - https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...rs-introduce-yourself.17/page-173#post-295309

    Our shelter order has me "stuck" with headphones at home and I want to upgrade my DAC without FOMO. Schiit says "no" to FEMTO, I say "no" to FOMO.

    The relevant part of my intro post for today, I primarily listened to vinyl up until a year ago - Clearaudio Ovation > Coffman G1-A > Audion Super Sterling > Coincident Total Eclipse speakers.

    I moved back to California last July and don't have room to set up the turntable and speakers. Small price to live in the sun again. I have gone to computer audio and headphones. Home system is Amazon HD > DAC (TBD**) > Coffman G1-A headphone out > Audeze LCD-2.1 (original pre-Fazor). Work system is Amazon HD > Red Wine Isabella DAC/headphone amp > Audeze LCD-2.2 (original pre-Fazor).

    **Yggdrasil? Gungnir Multibit?


    I reached out to @schiit via email with this question and they recommended the Bifrost 2, "Gungnir Multibit is warmer than B2 but I actually prefer B2 in everything except sheer dynamic scale. The Yggdrasil is kind of a totally different thing since it dredges up totally crazy levels of microdetail in a way even B2 and Gungnir Multibit with Unison do not."

    Several comments that I have read on here indicate the current Gungnir is cooler ("bleached") than the previous version, so I am confused that Schiit is saying that it is warmer than B2.

    Given my ancillary equipment and that my source is AmazonHD streaming (I know, I know), which DAC would you recommend from Schiit? or feel free to go off script and recommend another brand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  18. scottcw

    scottcw New

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    One clarification to the above on what I look for in audio. I found this post by @purr1n using TV as an analogy. I still own the last gen Pioneer plasma and feel the same way about shadow detail and dark grey levels. I give up ultimate black for the other two qualities. Same for audio.


     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You would definitely be in on the-way-of-the-Schiit DACs as opposed to the Convert-2 or even Sabre based DACs. Just be sure, the squarish sound does have its appeal and can easily suck you in. Not trying to second guess you, but just don't want you to be like @RobS and later decide that the Yggdrasil which was initially pretty good to him suddenly became "garbage" with posts and posts on how garbage it was after hearing the Dangerous Music Convert-2.

    Could be semantics. Bifrost 2 has more mid and upper bass than Gungnir A2 to my ears. Yggdrasil can be murky on the wrong system. Generally if you speakers tend toward fat, warm, or thick, I tend toward Gungnir A2. On speakers with lean and tight bass, I go the Yggdrasil. I have both DACs on two different speaker systems and this is how I pair them up.
     
  20. scottcw

    scottcw New

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    Thanks. I am only using Audeze LCD-2.1 (original, pre-Fazor), so no speakers. The rest of the chain is pretty neutral, maybe a bit of tube lushness/euphonics from the 5687s in the Coffman headphone circuit.

    Other than sound, do the limitations of AmazonHD as my source meant that the extra bits on the Gungnir and Yggdrasil are not necessary? Or would I still get improvement going with higher bits from the DAC? Apologies if that's a noob question.
     

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