Delta Sigma: An Inconvenient Truth

here goes, my dac journey written in as linear and chronological as a manner as I can remember. I think I included all the key players that paint a narrative but f**k me I cannot remember every DAC I owned in the past 4 years. I tried to limit the descriptions of each dac to the essentials and also include what source was being used at the time since I think the transport is at least as important as the DAC, if not more.

BTW @yotacowboy you put it very eloquently and I don't think it's being fussy. I only hope that listing out my experiences over the years will give some context of how I ended up listening to distorted lo-fi rolled-off NOS DACs.

ODAC: Yuck.

Modi 2 Uber (computer USB): much better than ODAC even though many people told me I wouldn't or couldn't hear a difference. shattered the objectivist illusion for me right out of the gate and I have been ignoring audio science people ever since.

AGD NFB28 (computer USB): not really better than the Modi 2 even though I thought it was at the time. the first time I felt dissatisfaction with D/S DACs although I could not very well articulate or explain why. I was not even thinking of things as R2R vs. D/S, I just knew deep down the AGD sounded bland and couldn't hold my attention

Gungnir Multibit A1 (Gen5 USB, RME 9632 PCI card, Arcam CD73 CDP): whoa! an absolute revelation that opened the doors to what was possible with R2R. according to last.fm statistics, I listened to more music for the year or so I owned this DAC, and in complete start-to-finish album form, than any DAC I would own for the years to come. I thought Moffat was a genius and this is what it was all about. Eventually I would grow to want better than my setup offered, specifically less warmbutt sound, and it seemed more economical for some reason to upgrade DACs than my headamp or headphones (in hindsight, a massive error in judgment, I should've gone the @Mikoss route and gotten a better OTL amp and called it a day).

Soekris DAC1541 (USB, RME 9632, Arcam CD73): didn't purchase this one but it was on loaner for a week or so from @JoshMorr. I thought it was pretty good and addressed my angst towards the Gungnir A1's warmth, but I couldn't bring myself to buy it. In hindsight my initial impressions were probably too influenced by hype because the Soekris DACs sound pretty sterile and lacking in expressiveness, even compared to the original Gungnir.

Yggdrasil A2 (Gen5 USB, various CD players): by chance I ordered one of these just as the Analog 2 update was announced and I got the upgraded model. I thought this would be the end of the journey and I really, really tried to like this DAC. It just sounds very off and colored to me for reasons I couldn't put into words at the time. From what I was told in private by a few people, I would have much preferred the A1 Yggdrasil, but never got to hear it.

Gungnir Multibit A2 (Gen5 USB, various CD players): went back to the good old Gungnir Multibit as what I thought would be a 'safe' choice. except it wasn't the old Gungnir Multibit, at all. The newer Gungnir Multibit was tonally bleached and sounded like it was trying too hard at all times. I didn't like it and traded it for a Yggdrasil again. No idea why.

Yggdrasil A2 (round 2): Bleh, same as last time. Don't know what I expected. Started messing around with D/S DACs as a result of the disillusionment with what Schiit was doing with the A2 models.

Crane Song Solaris (computer USB, RME 9632): Massive disappointment and returned it within a week. The epitome of AKM4490 'velvet' sound, soft attacks and porridge-like transients. It was very 'clean' sure but it has no actual musical clarity, made all guitar tone sound the same across recordings and genres. No individuality whatsoever.

TeddyPardo TeddyDAC (JCAT USB card, various CD players): Forever swearing off AKM, I always thought Wolfson had a more agreeable chip sound than the others from past experiences, so I decided to try what looked like a very good WM8741 implementation from Israel that had great reviews. And it was a great implementation, so great that it was the final straw for me and D/S DACs. It had very little sins of commission and barely perceptible chip sound but it still couldn't hold my attention with music.

Bifrost 2 (Unison USB, Sony CDP779ES): I think this is straight up just a better more normal sounding DAC than the new Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil, especially if one is using the SE outs, although from what I understand Schiit may have already made further silent revisions to the Gungnir Multibit. Closer to the tone of the OG Gungnir Multibit but much more clean and clear. The irony is that I finally found a DAC I was looking for when I sold off the OG Gungnir Multibit and found it to sound too polite/smooth in the presence region anyway. I wasn't that impressed with Unison USB it made the politeness issue worse and added a degree of homogenization to the sound.

AudioMirror DAC (JCAT USB card): NOS experience #1. I felt like someone with a chronic illness that had to resort to alternative medicine to get relief. I read about this DAC on Audiogon, exchanged some emails with the designer and decided to try it. It's an AD1865 NOS DAC using miniature triodes for I/U conversion. This was more like it and definitely felt like a step in the right direction, I preferred it for sure to the A2 Schiit DACs. Primary shortcomings were a dimming of the highest frequencies and lack of ultimate bass authority. Encouraged by more positive listening habits and willingness to explore new music, I decided to try more NOS DACs.

BorderPatrol DAC SE (JCAT USB card): NOS experience #2. I was initially very positive on this DAC, I felt the TDA1543 sound was more my style than the AD1865. It had a lively and straightforward sound that was addicting. It also had a lack of energy and a bit of sluggishness, I only learned later this is because there is no output buffer, which also makes this DAC unable to drive more difficult loads. I sold it and at this point was burned out, I spent several months dicking around with vinyl and CD players instead.

abbasaudio DAC2.2 (USB/SPDIF converter, various CD players): NOS experience #3. A friend from Denmark told me to check out this weird dude from Ukraine making DACs using TDA1541, vintage components and tubes. It was a huge gamble to buy it blind but it ended up a winner and end of the road DAC for me. I have used it for the past 7 months and have no desire to change DACs anymore. It does everything I am looking for: linear but brightly saturated tone, no high-frequency roll-off, extremely resolving, genre agnostic, dynamic as hell. Massed strings and vocal harmonies make me weep involuntarily. Every listening session with this DAC using a computer-based source involves the discovery of a new song, album, artist or sub-genre. Every listening session with a CD involves listening through to the end of the disc. Despite my success with it I hesitate to recommend this one to anyone else. It's an unknown brand, took months for delivery, is S/PDIF input only, uses several tubes and has physical dimensions unsuitable for a desktop setup. A very niche product for my allegedly very niche taste.

CD player experiences

In between NOS experience #2 and #3, I acquired a Mission PCM4000 CD player from a local vintagephile. It's a TDA1541 CD player that is basically a re-branded Philips inside. He had two of these, so we modified one to bypass the SAA7220P oversampling filter for NOS operation and compare them side by side using acoustic music. The player already sounds decent for a ~$200-250 vintage CDP but we both preferred it in NOS operation. The sound was freer and the musical message easier to decipher. I only mention this as its a comparison not a lot of people get to make and was another confirmation that I should further pursue NOS DACs. I took it home and compared it to my Sony CDP-X779ES which was and still is a pretty expensive player from the 90s using D/S conversion. The Sony went up for sale the next week.

My music taste

Since some ignoramus called my music taste into question I'll clarify that I really listen to everything. That wasn't the case even a year ago. I would fall into dissatisfaction with some aspect or component of my system and a cyclical rut of playing through the same pool of 30 or so recordings, analyzing for differences. It's very cliche but finally owning equipment I'm 95% satisfied with (as a gearhead I will always have <100% satisfaction rating) I was able to explore new musical avenues and have a hunger for musical discovery.

I listen mainly to classical (chamber, solo piano/violin, sometimes orchestral or choral works), jazz (bebop, hard bop, modal avantgarde), rock (60s psychedelic and blues mostly), folk (Joan Baez and Bobby Dylan) and Soviet stage/popular music from the 60s and 70s. Britpop and alternative music from the 90s will always have sentiment for me but comprises <5% of my listening these days.

maybe this helps someone who is as obsessive as me reach their happy place? BTW @Vtory I don't think the Schiit DACs are bad I just wouldn't personally go back to one at this point.

 

Awesome read k4, glad you found the DAC that works perfectly for you without the itch to upgrade.

This is interesting, so do you feel DACs matter a whole lot less than amplifiers (and transducers) or you still a source-first guy?

I'm assuming you went through various other amp/headphone/speaker changes along with DACs. Are there any of these DACs you didn't like back then that might work well in your current setup? Or are there innate qualities that can't be fixed with proper component synergy?

As an aside, yesterday's new amplifier experience kind of revealed just how little DACs matter in the grand scheme of things. I've been obsessing over dialing in the right source but the gains I've gotten from better transducers and amps has been a lot bigger than DACs. Its kinda embarrassing how much time and money I wasted poured over a source.

 

good questions which I will answer in several parts

I am still a source first guy, as @JoshMorr told me back in 2016 and has been in my profile description ever since: "I would spend heavy in source and than all amps and headphones sound better" - Josh "JoshMo" Mo

in all seriousness though the obsession with DACs in particular is extremely autistic. I will be the very first in line to admit that. that being said there is just no restoring what isn't there to begin with. one of the things I get now is an obsession about recording quality. I think most audiophiles have very skewed perceptions of recording quality and production value. if I ask someone to put on a good record I don't want to hear Diana Krall, Tin pan alley or a MoFi/Analogue Productions remaster. I have a great interest now in recording history and how it evolved (or devolved depending on which way you look at it) throughout the decades. Mediocre sources = differences between recordings are homogenized = you start to think MoFi is a top tier production house (LOL).

there are nuances to this as well. for instance when I first started messing around with speakers last year I was really happy to just listen to budget CD players and not care in the slightest. further, really good horn speakers like Altecs and the Klipsch La Scala's I own now still do wonders with more modest sources. the flipside is that with a speaker like the 104db/w La Scalas you really do hear everything and are rewarded for having a source that can resolve minutiae in the recording.

I think with headphones we are just more prone in general to hearing all sorts of small shortcomings and fuckery that gets on our nerves, I found this true with both amplifier and DAC cycling. I have a similar story with headamps that I do with DACs. I think I already linked you the article that explained it in PM

up until the TeddyPardo everything was evaluated with the Senn HD6X0 and a tube amp, either a Valhalla 2 or something more high end. at that point I also started doing evaluations with speakers, a really modest system at first compared to what I have now. I don't really feel that synergy would help too much for most of the DACs listed, my only regret as I mentioned is not just keeping the OG Gungnir Multibit and finding a better OTL amp than the Valhalla 2. this thread would've never existed as a result.

of course if I could start all over AND keep the experience I have now I would just build my own DIY TDA1541 DAC using PCBs from ebay and some experimentation. it would probably come out to under $600 and be most of the way there. but it doesn't work like that, I had to pay to gain experience.

I felt embarrassed just listing out all the crap I've tried but the pay off at the end was worth it. I get a personal concert whenever I want from long-dead performers. as a total aside, it's kind of funny how much some audiophiles mouth off about live performances, etc. I get it but there aren't that many live acts I would actually want to go see today. Who is going to play like Oistrakh or Gould? Who has a voice like Nellie Melba? Jazz is still alive and well in NYC but will never again reach the levels of consciousness it had in the 20th century. don't even get me started on rock, a genre that has become so derivative that listening to the radio is the sonic equivalent of staring at a washing machine.

 

An underestimated benefit for sure and a worthy goal I have pursued myself. It's not only because of laziness.
I live in a place where rarely good musicians visit.
Being a father to tiny kids makes traveling to lives more difficult than it's worth.
More generally, who really likes the activity of flying to a distant place just to hear the band play?
On top of that concerts held inside some building so rarely have tolerable acoustics.
Heh, and in times of pandemics (behold, the near future) one is left out of options, unless you live in Italy and consider your neighbor playing the violin on balcony a live concert experience.

 

I really like the teamwork that lead, at least me, to better understanding the path from subjective to incomprehensible.

@k4rstar distaste for DS DACs was all good until an "attempt to attach some sort of explanation to an otherwise esoteric phenomenon".
I am fine if someone says " DS DACs are inferior, it is my firm, subjective judgement".
I know it is a far reaching analogy but if I am told that someone can heal a brain tumor by looking into your eyes, I can accept it as possible. Unlikely, but until invalidated, it is possible, and if people experienced it good for them.
But when it comes to explanations of the same phenomenon using "aura" , "field of energy", and worst of all the quantum mechanics, then it becomes very disagreeable.
More often than not an attempt to bridge the gap between nonsense and "new sense" does not help, it actually may harm the cause, and I think @k4rstar response explained why.
It has to be said that, in context, @k4rstar attempt at explaining is honest, with light touch, and actually educational.

Compare it with aggressive BS and cognitive diarrhea we experience every day in audiophilia, politics, and other "disciplines."

 

@k4rstar, Seems Abbas DAC 2.2 comes in 3 flavors, one with germanium I/V, one with 6N6P, and one with 6sn7. Which do you like?


I think this thread has been excellent in reminding people that output stages play a big role (and if I might add, digital-transport stages, as is evident from Shiit, Solaris, and others). It's really besides the point, but since D/S is so easy to implement, it doesn't surprise me that, in general, there are more shitty D/S implementations and thus easy to cast aspersions on D/S. Earlier I said it was harder to do D/S well. I think I would revise that and say it's easier to D/S well enough, but as such, harder to find it done truly well.

 

Given the fact that we are allowed to argue on a non scientific basis. I cannot help but think that increasing the number of ladders (or chips) is not a very (cost) effective way to improve performance. I did own a Master 7 with 8 BB1704. But this is outdone by this beast:



32 x AD1865N-K

In my mind that is a brute force approach, which is not really an engineering feat. I think that Holo Audio's approach of using a second ladder to compensate the errors of the first is proper engineering in the sense that somebody used their brain in order to find a clever solution. Increasing the number of ladders/chips by four in order to improve performance by the factor of two is fast reaching the point of diminishing returns. On the other hand the cheapest Cassandra is 22,000 Euros, you can spend up to 85.000 Euros for the beast. In comparison the Spring 2 is around 2000 and 4000 Euros depending on the edition. Me thinks those 32 DAC chips are not only there to improve performance but also to justify the price.

 

Saw that one, too. For no apparant reason I would much prefer this one to the one with the Philips chip. Oh, just realised it seems to be cheaper, there you go, I found a reason.

 

all good points. thank god Italians all have Stradivari instruments lying around in their ancestral homes

I agree with your cooking analogy and that similar results in at least some aspects could've been obtained by DACs I haven't tried. I was aware of the EAR and SF dacs for a long time and for one reason or another never went for them. I still feel doubt that any D/S DAC can have the rhythmic/timing correctness I hear from NOS. at one point I thought it was related directly to jitter and became obsessed with clocks, femto/nano/picoseconds, etc. this illusion too was shattered with the Crane Song DAC which still sounded dead despite picosecond jitter specifications.

like you said most manufacturers won't touch the esoteric parts found in the abbas DAC but the ones who do are also not touching D/S chips. whether this is because they are incompatible in a culinary sense or something else I do not know.

I think they all use transistor I/V followed by a low impedance triode buffer. mine is the 2.2SE (black face plate means betterer parts and more premium tubes included). the model naming scheme is confusing as hell and I only went with this one as it is the one my friend in Denmark had.

edit: nevermind there is a model which is only transistor output.

 

@k4rstar - nice overview of your DAC journey, thanks!

Your NOS experience with the Mission CD player mirror mine, which led to my DIY/NOS/TDA1541/tube output project.

I doubt it, google the 19th century violin dealer Tarisio. He travelled all around Itally in search of Strads, del Gesus, the Guarneri family, Guadagninis, Gaglianos, etc. and sold them to the Parisian dealer/violin maker J.B. Vuillaume. By the mid to late 19th century British dealers like W.E.Hill and Sons were also in the game followed by America (Lyon &Healy, Wurltizer, Emil Hermann, etc.) in the early 20th century. By the time I was in music school in NYC in the 80s, Japan was a big player followed by S. Korea. Now China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan are in it too!

My apologies for going off topic...got carried away.

 

Rednet D16 - XLR out.

Just picked up a Magnavox CD player with dual TDA1541 for the k4 experiment

4x OS though...no NOS...although I've seen it modded that way (and a tube output stage).

 

LOL, that was a throwback reference to this thread where someone argued that Italians are more sensitive to real instruments than Americans. interesting violin history though, thank you!
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...thread-was-about-and-thats-a-good-thing.5092/

cool man! which Magnavox? let us know how it goes even if you don't like it - it will be a data point.

 

CDB-473

Check out this modded 473, warning NSFW k4 pr0n:





I think I will modify the output stage on mine too.

 

good find. this machine like the Mission PCM4000 has a lot of free space inside for adding a tube stage or clock if one desires. i will likely add one to my Mission later on

I have heard the virtually identical CDB-472 in a friend's system - he is an analog guy with 15" Monitor Golds and a massive DIY Lenco. the magnavox is the only digital he keeps around to listen to his CD collection.

 

@skem haha, maybe you already know but cassettes are capable of sounding quite good. a fully serviced Revox/Studer or Nakamichi Dragon deck can be comparable to open reel tape playback. I do not have much interest in them myself as most pre-recorded cassettes are from an era of music I don't really associate with, but I know a few local guys who have a real interest as they grew up with cassette.

even better than the compact cassette is the very short-lived Elcaset from the late 70s. it was a joint venture between Sony, Panasonic and Teac. it has double the tape width (1/4") of a regular compact cassette and sounds closer to open reel tape. however there is virtually no pre-recorded software available and the price of blank tapes increases year over year, it remains a collectors format useful only for dubbing master tapes and extremely rare LPs on. I had an opportunity to play with a Teac AL-700 and see it up close, real Japanese engineering.

I only found this one low quality pic from my phone of it. the circuitry and mechanism inside was quite insane. everything discrete, no cost cutting.

 

This pcb sandwitch layout is classic.
If only the insides would have been shown, in a first glance I would have guessed it's a 70's laboratory top end signal generator.

 

I would love to hear the 4.0, since it gives me that kinda mad scientist, you won't expect this sound (for better or worse) feel to it.

Thanks for sharing those impressions, was a nice read.