Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    The fact that in your setup the high-frequencies are superior to the KEF model says a lot to me. After all the hype died down, the single reason people were offloading them was that the treble was ear gouging for a long-term purchase. So if your Tannoys are superior to them in all aspects, that's a speaker in the right direction!
     
  2. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    Gold 7 and Gold 8 are dual concentric drivers. A 12" version would have to be 3-way, wouldn't it?
     
  3. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    @EagleWings

    RE: The treble fatigue. Try toeing the speakers out just a bit at a time and see if you like it a bit better. Some coax and single drivers can get a bit beamy in the treble with typical triangle setup geometry. Some can get a bit more relaxed without killing the center image with a bit of toe out.

    I regret selling my Tannoy Cheviots back in the day, what a fun floorstander.

    Addendum: And when you want to tackle the room, a wall hanging on the front wall between the speakers will kill a lot of the metallic twang and help the image even more.
     
  4. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    DIY Sound Group does 12" & 15" coaxial speaker kits. Have no idea what they sound like
     
  5. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    I see. Actually, treble may be the only avenue, where I have my doubts. Not because I felt the treble on LSX was better. But I feel my current setup is doing a good job of taming the highs on the Tannoys. Hopefully one of you experienced folks are able to try the Tannoys and report back on the treble performance. Because if the treble performance is indeed good, then these seem like a solid set of speakers for the price.

    Thanks, I'll keep these pointers in mind. In the current position, toeing out starts to smear the centre image, as the speakers are quite far apart (8ft). I'll need to experiment with toeing, once I find a better location for the speakers.

    Do you guys think the mattress portion in front of the speakers and, the pillows on the front wall are helping tame the highs?
     
  6. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    From my front wall experience the pillows do just a little. The smearing is a bit normal with a bare wall and sitting midfield. If your distance to the front wall is 8 feet or less it should improve. Big changes can occur with quilt or other big wall hanging.

    I wonder if the mattress acts as big bass trap? I am not too experienced in bass traps though, perhaps others can opine.
     
  7. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    So I'm tentatively shopping for a speaker upgrade for my battledesk, to replace my LSR305's. Decided I'd ask here, since it's all about exactly the type of speakers I want on my desk stands.

    Simple PC audio setup. Feed it all with a Modibit/Eitr and control with a Sys. The desk sits in a corner, up against the wall. Paired with an SVS SB-1000. It's a tiny room, 10x12. Not really sure where to start. It's been a while since I cared much about this kind of setup. I'd rather much bigger speakers in a bigger room, but for this use case it just wouldn't jive.

    The LSR305's have actually served me well. I generally like how they sound. But I've been wanting something bigger (up to 8") with more command/presence in the bass and lower midrange. Don't care too much about the deeper bass as the SB-1000 cuts them down at 80hz anyway and speakers with serious extension are a figment in this case. Though I've also considered the route of bypassing the sub c/o with speakers that hold up better below that and simply dialing the sub down to the sweet spot. Better 'true' extension is a plus, but it's really more about the quality within the range of bass that this form factor can reach.

    Loudness is a consideration, too. These little speakers don't do super-well with loud volumes. I know part of that is the room and placement, but I gotta figure there are slightly larger options out there that don't strain-out when you crank them a little too loud. And by that I don't mean they aren't loud enough... I'm saying the volume where they start sounding pretty bad is too low for me sometimes.

    My biggest gripe with the LSR305's, other than occasionally confusing imaging, is the overly 'clean' character they seem to have. And when I say that, I don't mean clarity, transparency, detail retrieval. I'm talking about the overall tone of it. They're a little too scooped for my liking. I like the detail presentation and the smooth, airiness of the highs - I feel like most monitors they compete with do much worse there - they either sound dead/mushy or knifey/stabby/scratchy. Down towards the bottom they can actually be decently punchy/quick, though there is a gap somewhere in the midbass that can really set bass and percussive instruments back on the wrong songs. They're not exactly dead down there, but it seems patchy.

    They really do sound big, dynamic and fun for cheap little powered speakers. Play nice with the 12 on the floor. But it seems like anywhere from the uppermost end of bass and partway into the upper mids, there's just not enough energy. I think there must be a dip somewhere square in the midrange, because it does some funky things to vocals and certain instruments where they just sound pushed back, like they're not really there with everything else. Still sounds natural - but sins of omission for sure. I've also noticed they can also get a little shouty and 'crushed' in the presence region. That always bothers me with rock and metal. It's such a critical area for those genres and they aren't the best at it. At the same time I don't want to get to genre-specific as I listen to a lot of different old and new music.

    I do listen in this area fairly often, they're not only pulling background/youtube duty. I'm looking for a serious upgrade. But I don't want to get too crazy with it either. So I'm going to start looking at powered nearfields in the range of ~$1200. Can flex a couple hundred or so on that if needed. Or if there's a less expensive option, I'm not against that either! I'm not as picky with speakers as I am headphones. Mostly because I don't know nearly as much about them as headphones. I'm looking for something that retains the good qualities of these 305's, but with more oomph... and hoopla... and gozangas... and maybe more refined upper mids. I can do warmer/darker easier than overly bright, as long as the clarity is generally still there.

    ...I understand limitations here, not asking for miracles. But I figured I'd pop in as I begin my search for the non-sidegrade option, assuming it exists. In the meantime I suppose I'll read through this thread.
     
  8. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Your setup, chain, and room are terrible fix those first. You can't talk about sins of ommission and commision in a speaker when your placement totally sucks and you're sitting them a desk in a corner. You can't complain about mixes because you don't have anywhere close to an even or coherent tonal balance and are probably cranking your speakers way past reference levels, probably to the point of distortion ebcause those things have no headroom. From your description, your setup is super off tonally and you have no idea what is wrong with the tone of the JBL 305. I have worked with them a lot. I have had a few pairs. I have a pair right now sitting on my floor as backup monitors. I know where they suck. Your description is really not describing that except a very mild mid scoop that may or may not be the scoop in the speakers because your set up is so bad.

    1. FIX YOUR ROOM! Stop complaining about the tonal balance in some awful corner and fix your room. At least place the speakers correctly. Move your desk.
    2. Ditch the sub in your shitty setup. It will just hurt you.
    3. Ditch the Modi Multibit. Stop complaining about the tonal balance of colored syrupy garbage. Buy something cheap from Steinberg or MOTU (M2 or M4) or the 200 dollar Schiit Mobius with the balanced out. These are listed from low to high.
    3. Avoid metal tweeters and crazy waveguides. You're going to be sacrificing mids for bass with two ways but these are nearfiedls.
    5. Stuff you can afford that's not cancerous in vague order of quality from low to high
    a) Yamaha HS8 is a 100% upgrade. Dry gozongas. It's not a bad speaker at all but it will destroy shitty modern music.
    b) Adam A7X and Hedd 07 have gozongas for days. The Adams are a bit surgically enhanced but fun. The Hedds will be more sober. I prefer HS8 to AMTs.
    c) KRK V6S4 has better mids, worse bass. V8 has better bass and is louder with worse mids. Not a bad buy at all. The V6 will destroy your shitty setup and pretty much all shitty modern music. MUSH IS MUSH on it. The V6 is non anorexic fashion model gozangas that will show everything wrong with the clothes. The V8 is airbrushed Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue gozongas.
    d) used ATC SCM12 or SCM19. Get a beefy amp. These are fashion models wearing clothes under laboratory lighting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  9. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    Hah, I half expected to see a response like this. I asked because I truly don't know enough about speakers to get where I want to be from my neglected setup. You're not wrong, I should probably start with the room -sub so I can get a better idea of what I really need to address. I didn't mention my room because I thought it was good or that it absolutely had to be that way, but because I know it could be better and there are some here who know much more than me and will go there without lying to me about can-be/should-be stuff. Better to get past that first than noodle around with bullshit.

    I don't keep this room too jam packed, so really the only limit with this desk is that it's too wide to get the speakers away from it. It would be hard to get very far from the wall. Either way I'll start by getting some measurements in the room and playing around with different arrangements, which I'm sure will teach me a lot. It's generally not the best space. 3 walls are framed drywall and one is concrete... laminate flooring with a big rug. What are some things I should watch out for when testing and arranging nearfields in a space like this? Problems I might confuse for something else or over-complicate. Most things I can probably work out on my own, I just figure it's probably wise for me to defer to your experience for stupid things I might not find reading/tinkering. I won't waste your time having you break everything down for me.

    And yeah, I expect there to be compromises no matter which way I go. Appreciate the recommendations. Those are all options I was considering. The KRK V6S4 is one I've been really curious about. It seems more where I want to be tonally, though I guess I won't really know unless I correct some things and actually try them. I can always save my pennies and come back to it then.
     
  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    You might not like the V6. It's soft and mid-centric. The V8 isn't. The ATC 2 ways are mid-centric too. Fix your placement and rearrange your room first. Try to keep the placement symmetrical and the speakers at least a few inches away from the walls. Get better sound for free. That might fix all of your problems except the crossover dip for you.
     
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Sorry I was super harsh, I just have used the 305 a lot and know where it totally falls flat on it's face in the lower mids, crossover dip, and hornflare. The upperbass is surprisingly not too awful on it at lower volumes. When you fix your room and ditch the sub, you will be better able to hear what the speaker cannot do and appreciate what it can do for the cost of a prix fixe dinner for two.
     
  12. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Yeah room is much more important than speakers imo, it's unfortunate that people never see the full potential of their setup. I posted this link many times and i will keep doing it since i think it's a great resource: www.arqen.com

    Maybe post some more info on your room like dimensions or even pictures, if that concrete wall is on a short wall i'd place the speakers up against that. People that are saying you lose sound stage etc when close to the wall have done nothing or not enough to their first reflection points ime. Use absorption, boundary compensation or eq and enjoy the free power.
     
  13. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Is it possible to upload q picture of the room/setup? Sometimes the biggest problem is placement and it doesn't matter what you buy, it will always bite you back and you'll never be satisfied.
    I understand where u r coming from and it's not always possible to get a new room, a good room, and we have to use the cards that we are dealt with.
     
  14. bilboda

    bilboda Florida boomer

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    Ditch the big desk. Put it on Craigslist or stick it on the side of the road on trash day or do both. Get speaker stands and let the speakers breath. If you are wired, you only need a surface for your keyboard and mouse and a stand for your monitor..Build your battledesk around the speakers instead of the other way around. A flexible shelving unit can help. Something like this on Amazon, mine is black but this gives you an idea of the flexibility. I use a 2 shelf and 3 shelf setup with shelf heights according to my needs, put the speakers on stands and upped my sonics and created space https://www.amazon.com/Finnhomy-She...025&sprefix=fleible+shel,aps,160&sr=8-38&th=1
     
  15. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    @robot zombie, heed @Psalmanazar in this case.

    I "did the best I could" with my room for a few years after buying non-gaming speakers. It was initially pushed toward the right side of my wall, and I centered it. When centered, it was on the long wall and my door was just to the left. Sounded good.

    I thought.

    Then I went to the trouble of rearranging my entire room. I moved my desk to the center of the short wall so the longer part of the room was behind me.

    Holy crap.

    Uneven speakers suddenly became notably (and measurably) better.

    Then I treated the room.

    Holy crap again.

    I cannot emphasize enough how important placement is with speakers. Room treatment is important too, but not as important as placement.

    You're listening to speakers in roughly the worst possible configuration (in a corner). If you buy something to replace your JBLs, you're straight up wasting money. Everything will sound effed there. You'll have to buy speakers until one sounds right, then one day you will move the speakers to a good place, and those speakers will be garbage.
     
  16. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    I know all about the limitations you face: I, too, listen in a nearfield system in a small room (13' X 13' home office). My room is packed with many things related to my business & cannot be treated with sound-absorbing panels or anything else to improve sound. Also, my speakers (currently the passive ATC SCM12 Pro's) are sitting on my desktop ~13" from front wall--a position that also cannot be modified.

    This is the 5th set of speakers/monitors I've had here. My first 3 systems were powered. The best of these was the humble but quite good sounding Swan M200MkIII's. It's equivalent to your LSR305s, w/a textile dome tweeter & 5.25" mid/woofer. It's ported in back of the speaker. But like your, these won't go truly loud and fail to capture the natural weight of the upper bass/lower midrange.

    I finally abandoned powered designs, after 1-2 years of searching for a "unicorn" powered design that would actually be musical in expression & have richer, more textured mid- to upper-bass (ie, needing a larger woofer). In order to accommodate the ATCs, I purchased a used class D amp said to sound quite musical (true). These speakers have completely transformed the sound of my system. I, like you, have a sub (currently it's a JL audio e110, crossed over at 80Hz). Still, the main improvements in my system w/the ATCs are in the range from 80Hz to ~500-600 Hz, which now has considerably more power & dynamics.

    Courtesy of the ATCs and my 1st powered monitor (NHT Audio ~11 yrs old), I learned that sealed/acoustic suspension designs work best in my room. They excite room modes less, allow placement closer to front wall, and reproduce bass in a more natural manner than any ported designs I've heard.

    So what can you do? All my research told me there are very few powered designs that don't sound clinical/forensic (I read 100s/1000s of user reviews--and most users are studio pro's). The most intriguing model I read about, often described as sounding good for music reproduction, was the HEDD Audio Model 07. These cost more than your budget, unfortunately. Here's a used pair:

    https://www.altomusic.com/hedd-type...WCxysYd03yvR-7dpmEarK4YcV5gHsJ8aAg0QEALw_wcB#

    After my powered monitor search, Elac came out with an "audiophile" powered monitor that got some praise. It's definitely over your budget. Here's a used pair:

    https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649640081-elac-arb-51-powered-bookshelf-speakers-in-gloss-black/

    If you're willing to pick up an amp to go with them, the passive ATCs are astounding IMO. I got mine used for $1000.

    I have a really refined, good sounding pair of sealed passive speakers that I'll sell later this year (Aerial Acoustics 5Bs). There are few sealed speakers around these days. These are very good.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  17. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    When I was looking into the Elac Navis bookshelf, I didn't follow up because some reviewers recommended against using it nearfield. They said the drivers didn't blend up close, and playing at lower volume (as in nearfield) wasn't ideal. It's really more of a standmount, midfield speaker.
     
  18. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    By the time the Navis came out, I no longer needed a powered speaker. Still, I could intuit from reviews & user comments that it wasn't an ideal nearfield speaker. It's a 3-way speaker, after all--a rarity in nearfield setups.

    BTW, in my previous reply, I left out some ATC commentary--because my post was already over-long; also because any of the ATCs I'll mention are way out of the price range of @robot zombie. But WTH, here goes:
    • From my research, ATC seems to be the one big name in professional studio monitors that has successfully penetrated the audiophile marketplace--sometimes w/"consumer" versions of their designs, but maybe more often w/TOTL studio monitor designs. This success is hardly due to pricing or in-your-face marketing: the latter doesn't exist, and the former is a drawback, as all ATCs are expensive, and the big boys are crazy expensive.
    • All the ATCs that interest me are 2-ways using (I'm pretty certain) the exact same 1" tweeter & 6" mid/woofer that are present in my ATC SCM12 Pro passives. The differences are all found in speaker volume and active vs passive.
    • I lust after three iterations:
      1. The SCM19, a consumer passive design with organically shaped cabinets & attractive wood options. These have an internal volume of 19 liters (thus, the name SCM19)
      2. And the studio pro, larger editions of my own ATC, the SCM20PSL Pro (passive) and SCM20ASL (active). These have the same boxy shape as my SCM12 Pro's & the same "any color so long as it's black." The internal volume of these is 20 liters.
    All 3 are huge, nearly 18" tall, ~9" wide & at least 12" deep. The active version of the SCM20 is 15" deep, with the extra depth being taken up by the integrated class A/B amps that directly power the drivers. And all 3 are expensive, ranging from $3,200 to ~$5000.

    I may lust after them, but it makes little sense for me to actually acquire any of them, even if I could find any pair used for a price I could afford. The passive iterations are really too large for my space-limited desktop: they would literally fit, but the tweeters would be above my ears . The active iteration wouldn't fit at all--too deep.

    There's another reality factor here that I (reluctantly) conceded: my SCM12 Pro's are the most dynamic, large-sounding, accurate yet not edgy/bright 2-ways I've ever encountered (they also sound superb on low volume, a real plus). They go WAY louder than my room or ears can handle. So to get even larger version of them would be insane. Played at medium- or louder-volume, they would blow the walls down.

    Still, what haunts me here is that larger internal volume need not be played loudly. I wonder if these larger ATCs wouldn't sound even better in the mid- and upper-bass (ie, more tonally accurate, better instrument timbre, more impact). This is how I make myself crazy...
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  19. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    What class D amp are you powering the ATCs with out of curiosity?

    I had the SCM11 and replaced them with with the 19s in a mid/farfield setup. IMO the 19s are too big for a nearfield setup, and I’m not sure that the drivers would integrate properly TBH. Maybe others have tried this and could weight in, but I think the 11/12s are very good for that purpose and I would be very happy with them. The differences between the models sound is not that significant either. The 19s as you would guess simply went lower and had a bit more confident and relaxed sounding bass vs the 11s had more excitement and more “quick and punchy” sounding bass. The treble was virtually the same and the mids pretty similar although maybe not quite as full or warm sounding as the 19s (and only slightly so, they still very neutral).

    I think if you love the ATCs, you likely have the right size for your setup/situation. A great amp (and DAC as well) however could make a considerable difference for you, as they love quality power and can really show off your upstream gear.
     
  20. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I own the 20's, and I've heard the 11's and the 10signature.

    The 20's feel fatter, though I wouldn't necessarily say they feel like they go deeper. Probably it's more that the 20's are a bit more efficient and can squeak more oomph per watt. If I had the 11/12, I don't think the 20's would be a worthwhile upgrade and I'd aim for the next size up.

    The 10se did strangely feel like it actually went deeper but a bit more strained at the same time.
     

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