Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    My low opinion of Amir is known. In fact I would prefer that we were not even discussing him here, but I accept @purr1n's point that Amir and ASR need to be shown up: this a public service. But after reading this single-speaker-imaging thing... now I know he is just a bullshit audiophool. Whereas audiophoolery is usually associated with an extreme "subjectivity" which is actually just bias, I guess (well, now I know) that there are audiophools who hide behind numbers too.

    My opinion of Microsoft has always been low too. Known for ruthless, monopolistic trade practice, certainly not for technical excellence. So waving the I was a Microsoft senior blah blah flag does not impress me at all. OK OK OK... Yes, I know, some genuine and excellent engineers worked for microsoft. Everyone has to make a living. Looks like Amir was not one of them.
     
  2. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    They intended to not piss off the manager, so they showed up. I say - f**k what the artist intended, I want to hear what they did!

    Older 1032 and Vader Gennies sounded the best. I don't know why they ended up where they are now sound-wise. I will tell you that in a corporate environment it's extremely hard to out-argue numbers. That's the reason why I went away from marketing on audio forums. I still think that, when successfully done, it's a major channel for brand-building, but it's almost impossible to track and measure. When I left Sonarworks for the second time, my farewell advice was that they should avoid becoming addicted to certainty. Numbers have tremendous value, but they have their limitations which should be always known. By relying on numbers alone you get lulled into a sense of security, that the world is small enough to grasp completely. But it's not. Models should never be mistaken for reality.
     
  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    kinda curious... what kind of cost cutting can be made from a software company perspective?
     
  4. je2a3

    je2a3 Almost "Made"

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  5. Bobcat

    Bobcat Friend

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    Follow Microsoft's process. Crowd source your testing to volunteers. Cuts cost (quality too, but what the heck).

    Rob
     
  6. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    The genetic experiments involving input from various combinations of Julian Hirsch, Tom Nousaine and Arny Krueger were never widely publicized because the results were a bit embarrassing. Although the offspring had the desired ultra-'objectivist' tendencies, they were mostly pretty bad at actually acquiring the measurements and at knowing which ones were appropriate.
     
  7. firedog

    firedog New

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    This is just as much of a nonsense comment as anything at ASR. The DAC/Streamer in question is quite a nice little piece of equipment and sounds fine. I've used it with some of the most resolving speakers on the market (Kii Three) and it sounds fine. I bet you haven't heard it and are slagging it b/c it is from China.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    FWIW, the X-Sabre Pro DAC was reviewed and very positively received here:

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-pro-dac-review-stream-of-consciousness.7598/

    No need to get your panties in a bunch with your first post.

    Please read the appropriate new member articles, get a feel for the forum, learn its customs, and introduce yourself. It's also considered bad form to immediately disagree with one's first post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  9. firedog

    firedog New

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    I think that's true. They've identified some expensive equipment that measures very poorly, yet gets rave reviews. If you like the sound that's fine, but I'd rather buy something that sounds good AND measures well, and not buy something that sounds good b/c it outputs lots of euphonic distortion.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Define lots of euphonic distortion?

    What if it sounds great and outputs 87db SINAD?

    What level of THD can your ears detect? Can you hear THD if its below the ambient noise floor?

    Did you know that the highly regarded JBL 305 has an amp that outputs high levels of distortion, around 50db SINAD of NON-euphonic distortion (odd orders).

    Yet no one, including Amir seems to hear this? There is a reason why this might be - do you care to guess?

    Do you actually know what you are talking about? Seriously, I mean really know. Did you even bother reading the thread, or did you just zoom in on the one post that you could not resist arguing against?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  11. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Kii Three is an active speaker with a bunch of AD-DA conversions. Why would you even use a DAC to begin with?
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    There is a market for euphonic distortion. But that is not what most folks around here like. I don't.

    Also note that when it comes to relative high distortion, you are not going to get euphonic distortion most of the time. You are more than likely going to get resolution loss, and in the extreme, the sounds of farts and grinding teeth.

    Past some SNR high point, you are really just buying bragging rights. Mr Objective (NwAvGuy) himself argued this point as well. But he was not fully congruent. Here are the arguments:

    1) Below some level of linear/non-linear distortion threshold, all things sound the same.
    2) Megabuck equipment is justified if they push the linear/non-linear distortion limits.

    However, what is the point of buying megabuck or kilobuck equipment with super-low linear and non-linear distortion, if one believes it will sound the same as something many times less the price?

    I can tell you what Mr Objective said: Errr... Yeah... Errr... Peace of Mind... But if you really believe argument 1) the answer is none.

    But argument 1) is an over simplification. You may find that a particular piece of equipment (regardless of price or measured performance) works fantastic with the rest of your equipment and is the right match for you.

    It is best to not over simplify. And even better to recognize that everyone is going to evaluate a piece of equipment through with their own rose-tinted glasses.

    EDIT:

    Also, the value of a set of reviews is low, if they fail to provide some level of guidance that can be adapted to the individual preferences of the reader. As such, it is hard to give a high grade to reviews that give accolades to equipment based on brand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  13. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    This is way off the deep-end and would obviously result in a huge innernets flame war, but her she goes:

    $1k budget: best objectively measuring system of DAC/Amp/Headphones or IEMs from ASR. Package it and ship to SBAF for a set of a dozen or so subjective reviewers of varying sensibilities, i.e., both "expert" and "enthusiast".

    Similarly, $1k budget: best subjectively "approved" system of DAC/Amp/Headphones or IEMs from SBAF. Package and ship to ASR-selected "willing objective observers" to both measure with whatever ineptitude they decide, and give any limited subjective impressions in double-blind sessions, henceforth.

    Then (!!!) we send both packages off to Guttenberg and Tyll, if he's willing, for impressions.

    FUN AND GAMES!!! FUN! AND! GAMES!
     
  14. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    The Kiis suck ass next to speakers with better drivers. All they have is limited bass in a small cabinet. Stick them next to ATC SCM50ASL in a good room and they’re just cheap driver, class d garbage. Most decent 3 way floorstanders will kill them for enjoyment. They’re north of 10000 dollars. There is no way they can hang with the best actives. They can’t even outresolve 1000-3000 dollar 6.5” two ways with beefy magnet drivers and soft domes for real work. The Kiis have a nasty aluminum midrange like the Amphions, which outresolve them off a beefy enough amp with their Seas drivers and cool crossover.

    You’re only going to hear the JBL distort when the drivers are about to cook themselves and if you can recognize the bass as warm. Many people can’t. I have in pair boxed up on my floor. The low mid scoop and horn flare is nastier than the distortion.
     
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It is not gonna work. Amir and ASR in general is not full of objective observers.

    Here we have some dude telling Amir he is being very partial (objectively speaking):

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-kit-speaker-review.12086/page-3#post-352270

    And here is Amir's response:

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-kit-speaker-review.12086/page-4#post-352543

    "What would you like me to do? Listen to a speaker, find it unsatisfactory, and report it otherwise?
    The implication that I heard it sound better but lied is quite a reach. And unappreciated."


    Amir is pretty damn subjective as show above. His own frequency response plots thrown at his face do not support his ground, objectively speaking. If you go back to the beginning of that thread, he gave Zaph poor grades purely based on how the speakers sounded to him. Where is the Audio Science in that?

    Look at this:

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-kit-speaker-review.12086/page-4#post-352559

    "The EQ is for room compensation, not speaker. It is a single band at a room mode that was constant with three speakers I measured. I applied the same to Zaph. It made a tiny improvement because it has so little bass.
    Let me repeat: I am absolutely NOT equalizing speakers. Nor was I heavy handed with Room EQ. Corner placement is causing room modes to accentuate some so I am compensating for that.
    Removing the room mode makes the speaker judgement more universal in the same manner free-field (anechoic) measurements do."

    Since when is EQ only for room compensation? Since when is anechoic measurements the undisputable target for every speaker technology? How are the above views "objective"?

    That's just a bunch of subjective opinions. And wrong ones at that. While difficult, a few in-room responses offer a lot of value specially considering that different speaker technologies interact with the room differently. Equalization is not only for room compensation, and in the measurements context he was not being fair to both speakers, objectively speaking.

    Do not confuse this site as the "subjective" heaven, and ASR as the scientific "objective" one. Since quite sometime, many folks here have strived to maintain a subjective/objective balance. There is tremendous value in both.

    Tyll 100% retired. Dunno what Gutty is upto. Don't care actually.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! the JBL 305 will give you their sweet 60 Hz moan on a quiet passage if sitting sufficiently close to them.

    This is common to most active speakers. Which is why eventually I will design my own passive speakers to replace my cheapo Mackies in my bedroom.
     
  17. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    I never noticed that. I just had HISSSSSS

    The HS8 I had (better speakers) hummed like a Fender amp.

    If you want cheap passive monitors, there are always NHT Super Ones. They're Super NS10s.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  18. Iorveth

    Iorveth New

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    ASR , I posted a review there ,got trolled for not having any measurements ..
     
  19. Iorveth

    Iorveth New

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    The shit rep they get get is well deserved.
     
  20. ruinevil

    ruinevil Acquaintance

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    Even if he doesn't need money, the donation provides a feeling of membership to the forum. Makes for a more loyal member. I'm just there for the measurements.

    Though as a LSR owner, the bass measurements are straight out wrong for real world use... though his equalization is close to correct to flatten the midbass bump.

    I totally agree with the dispersion complaints though.
     
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