Final Audio D8000 Pro - Out of the Dark Ages of Ortho Tech!

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Glad to see they’re planning on doing a range for all budgets! Force HFM and Audeze to actually innovate.
     
  2. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Or forcing them out of the market, probably not even Focal has that amount of resources available. We are talking about hiring retired Sony and Yamaha engineers for 2-3 years, building custom machines to build the headphones and having a super neat factory with all kinds of equipment to prototype whatever they want in house at any moment. Final even builds BA drivers and connectors themselves.

    Only Sennheiser (dead) and Sony (LOL) have more or that amount of cash, but not the ambition or the brains to build a disruptive, better headphone.

    D8000 Pro costs a lot of money, but imagine a headphone with that tech and decent voicing at 300€...why would you want to give money to Audeze/HFM//etc? Newbie head-fiers/early adopters and Jude's promo apart, It's over for them, IMO, it wouldn't be strange if they started to focus on electrostats or dynamic headphones with such a fierce competition.

    As always, IMO and YMMV, but I don't see them building something comparable with top quality control and reliability.
     
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  3. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Bring it the f**k on!
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The ortho wall / ridges / floppy thing doesn't seem to occur with untensioned or low tensioned drivers like T50RP or Mrspeakers stuff.

    It would seem to be a result of insufficient damping for tensioned diaphragms - think membrane over a drum. Note that e-stats exhibit this behavior too.

    Perhaps the circular diaphragm and traces of the D8000 may have something to do with it, but ultimately it's mechanical and electrical damping (magnetic force). Mechanical damping also includes air cushion. Some circular orthos have the center of the diaphragm tied down.

    It's basically all that techno babble in their marketing materials, the modelling of the ALDS or whatever with coils, caps, and resistors with the funky equations.
     
  5. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    I had to get the D8000 (non pro) just because I wanted to get a Japanese headphone.

    The D8000 was released a while ago, went somewhat unnoticed and with the release of the Pro version it started to draw attention to another overpriced headphone.

    But, this isn't just another headphone, quite unique in the HP world, build quality is Stax 009/Abyss/Utopia level and even above. Pictures don't to it justice yet holding and touching the materials it feels like an absolute premium product as expected from Japan.

    The D8000 came with a Final stand and two 3.5mm and 6.3mm cables. D8000 Pro comes with a carrying case and a horribly overpriced copper silver plate cable they say worth £600+. The theory for noobs is the prominent low end of the D8000 is fixed by the silver plated cable yet the tuning is in the headphone iself and the cable is just a marketing ploy for additional profit and to justify the Pro price.

    How the the D8000 sound? In a previous life I'd have said it's the promised grail and end game. I see the D8K and to an extent the D8K pro as the ideal for a headphone focused system rather than a gear focused one.

    Low end is super full, it's like an upgraded LCD-2 pre fazor, extensions falls short just before sub bass with an emphasis on mid bass. This emphasis IMO is overdone and can work really well for light mid bass tracks yet feel overpowering for others. I can't really get any substantial sub bass from it especially compared to Susvara but it delivers high quality low end almost regardless of amplification. The D8K pro supposedly fixes this and if true i'd be happy about it yet some users who had both commented they preferred the character of the base one compared to just another reference tuninf wannabe. Some people mention the stock cable is too thick and a tinner cable would fix the mid bass but having tried multiple cables I don't agree with it. Now...if you're a ZMF fan I feel these are less mid bass focused than a Verite C and overall have a superior low end response.

    Midrange is buttery, liquid almost HD650 smooth. The IMO overpowering low end never bleeds into the mids yet on some tracks I feel like having to look over the midbass to get a good listen of the mids. While a touch grey when comparing to my reference they're above any ZMF IMO for detail and clarity. The party trick of D8K is the cohesion, lack of grain presentation even if I feel they're a bit grey and lacking in depth. They're just below the hifiman SE1K which I rate in my top 5-7 headphones of all time.

    Top end manages to be as sibilance free as HD650 or LCD-4 while retaining a high degree of detail. Even treble focused setups which would make the H650s go into mild sharpness these would still be smooth and detailed. My tinnitus has been flaring up and the D8K is the perfect no questions asked headphones for the uber high end sensitive.

    Imaging is somewhat spectacular, I feel they're just behind the Utopia which is saying something, above average soundstage and I really enjoyed the instrument placement and focus.

    Overall it's hard to describe the quite unique sound they offer, somewhat rounded detail edges that present 85% of detail. And here's why I won't keep them myself, they always feel like 85% regardless of amplification which is great for a value amp/dac setup but not what I'm looking for and on my custom amp and HD650 with its apparently limitless scaling capabilities pulls ahead. Image depth, detail midrange clarity, low end, high end resolving power, microdynamics feel like 85% all the time. The Susvara by comparisons feels like 120% yet that beast requires ungodly amping where the D8K sounds exceptional from the WM1A.

    My conclusion is for a somewhat bang for buck headphone centric setup the D8K is an excellent value and while my impressions were somewhat harsh I'd much rather pick it than LCD-4, any ZMF or Dan Clark or Hiiman below HEKSE and the fact it's resell value is poor makes it great value.

    To my understanding the D8K Pro has less midbass where it almost sound balanced, less soundstage, cooler overall with more high end detail and can sustain super high SPL even if my D8K driven to uncomfortable levels never sounded off. Actually because of the smooth sound I can listen to far above my usual volume level without issues or discomfort.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Indeed.

    I'm sure many readers are wondering WTH we are talking about. It's true that there was or still is a camp of "Team Dynamic" who felt that orthos weren't quite up to snuff, being a one or two trick pony that only did certain things well such as extended bass. Some have also referred to orthos disparagingly as "playnar". The problem really is that modern orthos do not match up to vintage orthos, and that most people have never heard vintage orthos. It's not that vintage orthos did not have problems. They most certainly did and required mods to sound not all screwed up with respect to frequency response. There was plenty, plenty of excitement a decade or so ago when the likes or HFM and Audeze re-introduced orthos. The problem is that it seemed that they simply started over from scratch, as opposed to taking the baton from where the vintage orthos left off.

    To this day, I still scratch my head at why some of these modern ortho brands are so popular given their reliability and consistency issues - and perhaps more crucially what @rhythmdevils referred to as the "floppy" underdamped behavior. One only need to look at the diaphragms of modern orthos to understand why - they really do look like high-school science projects.

    Anyway...

    historyoforthos.jpg

    I most certainly wish that the D8000 tech will trickle down and we can once again bask in new age of ortho goodness. Who knows, maybe other manufacturers will be inspired and take up the challenge.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  7. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I've always been interested by these, but the bass hitting "X-Max" or whatever its called has steered me away, combined with reports they are good but not Susvara or 1266TC Level. I actually tried a pair on, and whilst it was heavy it seemed to be ok in the comfort department. Not sure how it would fair long term.

    I think they look super cool, for whatever thats worth though. I really like the looks of the sonorous series as well, as they seem to echo old Japanese headphones designs from the 70s.
     
  8. spartacus

    spartacus New

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    if only somebody could build a car for say 10k that can be as good or better than a TOTL mercedes or BWM...wow,that would be great...perhaps there are reasons these things cost what they do?...obviously price doesnt dictate quality etc but there are limits
     
  9. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Your reading comprehension is far from impressive, read previous posts. The tech will trickle down to less expensive models, of course the 300€ headphone won't be as good as the 3800€ one, but it should be free of the typical nastiness due to tech/implementation like the bigger models at the cost of technicalities.
     
  10. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    its funny because I believe it was Wualta on head-fi who discovered what the vintage ortho manufacturers didn’t figure out or ever get right. He added some felt to the back of an undamped probably Yamaha orthodynamic driver and was like “whoa!” His discoveries and knowledge about this started the ortho thread on head-fi and the excitement and community that built up around this is what convinced Audeze to turn their new orthodynamic microphone driver into a headphone. And then Hifiman quickly followed suit of course as China always does. So the ortho thread is literally responsible for the ortho comeback. I don’t believe we would have ANY new orthos if it weren’t for Wualta. But the companies didn’t implement the lessons which were the whole point of the ortho thread. It’s so weird. To this day Audeze has not learned these lessons. Their LCD-2 is an ortho abomination no less than a stock Yamaha is. And so is the Verum I hate to say because I know you like them @purr1n but they are so underdamped and underperforming. I only needed to listen to them for about 20 seconds before being ready to open them up and fix them.

    If you don’t learn from history it repeats itself. Only reason I think the neo orthos have survived is because of a much more energetic headphone market today compared to the late 70’s early 80’s.
     
  11. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Thank you for the detailed comparison with Susvara. From what you said is it correct to say that the D8000 is darker than Susvara?

    I feel that Susvara is a bit underrated.
     
  12. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    You can't compare with Susvara, they're different price points, tunings, sensitivities and ideas.

    D8K can come out as dark but with excellent detail, plankton and fitness, in many ways it's like a super HD650 without the tonal excellence of the mid range and a planar flavour.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Susvara is less even, slightly bumpy in lower mids to lower highs. There is some spittiness in the highs, and careful matching is necessary to avoid sort of a splashy treble timbre.

    The D8000 Pro is more even until the 10kHx tizz and has a dip at 3kHz where the Susvara has a minor bump with a dip earlier at 1.5-2kHz.

    As such, the D8000 Pro will likely be perceived as less bright.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Susvara has low distortion when it comes to steady-state signals. With respect to some technicalities on a subjective level, it's amazing: clarity, speed, microstuffs. (I know Susvara will not pass @rhythmdevils "floppy" test).

    However, following the trend of the past decade, we get better technicalities with less progress on tone and timbre. Well, at least not from a Changstar / SBAF perspective where bassy or depressed mids are more easily forgiven than anomalies in the upper mids and lower treble. The fact remains: high-end headphones still suck with respect to smoothness of highs when compared to $300 self-power monitors.

    The Susvara is $6k. This makes it the most expensive headphone on the planet no? Being the price leader invites scrutiny.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  15. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    Ah yes, Final Audio.

    There’s a lot of exotic audio gear from Japan no doubt, but Final really takes the cake. I still have the Muramasa headphones, the first full sized headphones they attempted to market but... that didn’t really work out due to their being around ten points of uncushioned weight on the crown of your head. The earcups literally hurt bc there’s like a millimeter of padding. They sound like an old gramophone.

    But like Marv indicated, for every Muramasa there’s also the D8000. I think some corporate restructuring resulted in better focus in this area. They have seriously talented designers.
     
  16. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Quoted for emphasis.

    and hi @MuppetFace
     
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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    To that, and considering that Final and their competitors do make boutique gear, I actually feel good looking at, holding, and handling the D8000 Pro. It's damn comfy too despite its weight and I can wear it in bed lying down.

    The D800 takes some design cues from the 70s NAD which I think is kind of neat - but modernized with a Japan industrial aesthetic. Like the Focals, no one can argue that the D8000 is chintzy.

    The LCD4, AB1266, and Susvara are great headphones in their own right, but the LCD4 evokes the Ford F150, the AB1266 a Doctor Who prop, and the Susvara a Chinese Tesla knockoff.

    Geez. When I think of it, some of these headphone manufacturers, if they are going to price their products like luxury goods, at least make them look and feel like luxury goods!
     
  18. Lurker

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    The anodized silver version is pure bliss:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The D8000 and the ADX5000 are my grail headphones.
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Frequency response and CSD comparison with Susvara. Note both plots have 1/24 smooth. I did NOT smooth the D8000 Pro frequency response.

    Final Audio Pro (BLU/RED) vs HiFiMan Susvara (WHT)
    Frequency Response
    Flat Plate Coupler (with comp)
    Both plots 1/24 smoothed
    upload_2021-4-10_20-23-4.png

    D8000 Pro
    CSD
    FPC D8000 Pro R.jpg

    Susvara
    CSD
    FPC Susvara L.jpg

    The jaggy FR is reflected in the CSDs, which show some settling issues. Again, not all people are sensitive to this. I don't want people to get all fascist on measurements. The HE5XX exhibit this behavior and many folks don't seem to hear it. Earlier I did mention that when we see this, we usually get a hit to plankton, low-level information retrieval. I didn't think this was the case with the Susvara though subjectively. There was a "bouncy-bouncy" kind of effect with Susvara, not as bad as with HEK, but still there.

    The Susvara runs over the D8000 Pro with respect to distortion in the bass and the mids at high levels. Note the high D2 in the mids of the D8000 Pro. This seems to align with what I heard with respect to a bit of haze in the mids. The bass distortion is actually still very good in the overall scheme of things despite being higher than the Susvara - which is exceptional in the bass.

    D8000 Pro
    Harmonic Distortions
    1kHz at 104db SPL approximate
    upload_2021-4-10_20-34-26.png
    Note 200Hz D3 spike is a measurement artifact.

    HiFiMan Susvara
    Harmonic Distortions
    1kHz at 104db SPL approximate
    upload_2021-4-10_20-33-23.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Final Audio Pro D8000 Pro
    Harmonic Distortions (H2 and H3) at various SPL (1kHz)
    Traditional View
    upload_2021-4-10_21-34-11.png
    Note 200Hz D3 spike is a measurement artifact.

    Note that at moderate levels, very low D3 from 40-200Hz and very low D2 from 60 to 180Hz. This is where most "bass" resides. Most audio-geeks mistaken the bass they are hearing as being lower than frequency than it actually is.

    For comparison, Clear Mg and HD8XX:

    Clear Mg Harmonic Distortions (H2 and H3) at various SPL (1kHz)
    Traditional View
    [​IMG]

    HD8XX Harmonic Distortions (H2 and H3) for various SPL (1kHz)
    Traditional View
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021

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