Schiit Yggdrasil Less is More (and MIL and OG) Impressions + Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Sep 9, 2021.

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Should SBAF get a loaner Yggdrasil Less Is More?

  1. Yes, please!

    75.4%
  2. Only if there isn't anything else more interesting

    11.5%
  3. No, I would prefer for a loaner an overpriced planar that looks like it's from House Harkonnen

    6.2%
  4. Save up for something better

    6.9%
  1. leafy

    leafy Facebook Friend

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    GS is equivalent to A1 boards + A2(OG) firmware. There might be quite a few folks who upgraded by themselves and now have spare A1 boards lying around. Ask Schiit if they are willing to sell a single ROM chip for A2 firmware.
     
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  2. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    GS = A1
    OG = A2

    Edit: It looks like Schiit is no longer selling the GS, so indeed the GS is now unattainable as new. When Yggdrasil went from A1 to A2, the upgrade Schiit offered was a swap of the analog cards, and Schiit used the returned A1 cards to build GS units.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
  3. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Gs is the first version with analog 1 boards and updated firmware, OG is analog 2.

    Edit: I'm blind and didn't see later posts.
     
  4. gefski

    gefski Facebook Friend

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    I don’t recall ever seeing the designations A1 and A2 on the Schiit site. Before the new flavors, the Yggys I was aware of were as follows:
    Purchased my first Yggdrasil 6/2015, they all had serial #A_____________.
    Purchased my 2nd Yggdrasil 3/2018, they all had serial #B_____________.
    The Yggdrasil B all had the updated analog cards; early ones had Gen 5 USB, later ones had Unison USB.

    Eventually, Schiit used the returned cards in otherwise “new” Yggys, Garage Sale or GS. IMO probably the incredi-value Yggdrasil ever. ($1599 I believe)

    As stated on the Schiit site now, OG continues with the serial #B, while the LIM and MIL have holographic stickers to designate flavor.

    Just throwing this out for Yggdrasil spotters.
     
  5. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    All serial numbers starting with "A" had the first analog - aka A1 - cards. All the ones starting with "B" had the updated (version 2) - aka A2 - cards.
     
  6. gefski

    gefski Facebook Friend

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    Ahh, I missed that the cards have the A1/A2 designation, thanks!
     
  7. exocer

    exocer Acquaintance

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    Alright, so I switched from the stock fuse to the QSA Light Blue ($71) a few weeks ago and I think it was really good decision. I expect some downvotes but I don't really care. My ears are not lying to me and the improvements are not subtle. I was never into installing audiophile fuses but the Yggdrasil is very responsive to this. Please PM me if interested in learning more.

    I re-installed the A2 boards today to see what it would sound like with the new "baseline".

    Some observations after 4 hours of warmup:

    1. There is certainly more plankton and microdetail.
    2. Its more exciting than LIM.
    3. I was expecting to hear harshness or lack of cleanliness in the high frequencies because I noticed this change when I switched from OG to LIM. But all i'm hearing is more extension in the high frequencies and absolutely no harshness.
    4. The tone is really good but not at the level of LIM. I do miss that about LIM.
    5. Bass is a bit heavier than LIM, slightly less detailed but still very enjoyable. I can see the two presentations come down to preferences.

    I'm going to stick with A2/OG for a while. The micro details are nice. I can't say that the extra details make me "enjoy" the sound more. What I find more enjoyable about A2/OG is its lack of politeness compared to LIM. Its as if it doesn't hold itself back as much.I wonder if the discrete analog boards are the reason for this. Will listen more tomorrow and report back if anything about this report changes.
     
  8. Josh Schor

    Josh Schor Friend

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    I have also heard the benifit from doing this on other gear so Im interested. You changed the fuse on the a2 or the lim? is the fuse directional?
     
  9. exocer

    exocer Acquaintance

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    There is an arrow on the fuse body itself. The manufacturer claims they are directional. I tried both directions and for me the arrow facing toward the rear of the Yggdrasil sounded right. The other direction sounded a bit harsh/bright.

    I had originally switched the fuse with the well broken-in LIM boards installed and the difference/improvement was immediately audible and improved further for a while.
     
  10. kukur9

    kukur9 Acquaintance

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    I really appreciate this observation because as I posted previously, to my ears it's almost like LiM is a different DAC altogether. I'm looking forward to hearing more from @exocer and others on their "back to A2" experiences in comparison to LiM. And MiL if any. I've been missing my A2's excitement although I am always satisfied when listening to LiM. There is a trade-off to my ears.

    Recently I happened to spot a good deal on a new amp I was thinking about and so I pulled the trigger. As it turns out, happily, the LiM plays very, very well with it, BUT I do still hear what I and others are calling a kind of politeness or balance or summing as the LiM's sound signature. I feel safe now after hearing LiM in two different amp/speaker setups in my room saying that A2 has a kind of energy that draws me in more. And I think it's probably still safe to say the presentation of LiM is more balanced and more musical if you want to hear more of what's in the mix and not just what is emphasized by A2's design (as it seems to me). So, I think system matching rears its head again.
     
  11. exocer

    exocer Acquaintance

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    Will share more more details next weekend but so far the excitement is good. The excitement does not mean more tiresome or fatiguing. Something about the emotional engagement is missing though and it may very well pull me back to LIM sooner than I had planned. It may have to do with the expression of tone. There were a few songs that wowed me in some areas with LIM but OG/A2 doesn't produce the sound in the same way and I find myself missing that a bit. The best of both worlds would be a LIM with the gutsyness of the A2/OG.
     
  12. mhanism1

    mhanism1 New

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    Woo-hoo! After a 6.5 week wait, Schiit authorized my payment and my black Yggdrasil LIM should ship soon! Just in time for the Thanksgiving break!
     
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  13. Huhnkopf

    Huhnkopf Friend

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    Nobody cares. Drop some impressions or shut up about it.

    Just took a dump, woohoooo. Tomorrow I should be able to drop another one. Just in time to update this thread
     
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  14. scblock

    scblock Friend

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    Though the response is a little harsh, it's also right. This sort of thing belongs in a profile post rather than the main impressions thread. As a profile post it would be fine.
     
  15. exocer

    exocer Acquaintance

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    Here is my promised update:

    So OG sounds wonderful. I don't think there is anything I would change about OG. Compared to LIM it is less shy and just goes all out in its presentation. I'm really into that energy at the moment. The Tonal accuracy never reached that of LIM so there is a slight loss there but not as much of a deal-breaker as I was initially thinking. I notice I tend to listen to different music again with OG. With LIM I listened to much more classic rock, with OG i'm listening to Electronic and older Jazz. So where does that leave me? Well, with two really awesome DACs I can switch between when I want to switch things up. I'll be keeping the LIM boards for when I want to go that route again. Equally happy with OG but in a different way.

    Perhaps upon re-installation of LIM i'll remember what was so magical about it. At this point I going to stick with OG until I get the urge to try something new again.

    For those who had two complete Yggdrasil's to switch between, I envy you ! It is a lot more difficult to discern the differences by switching the boards. The OG took some time to stabilize.

    Perhaps what I need to do is switch back to LIM once again :D
     
  16. mhanism1

    mhanism1 New

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    So warmed up the LIM for a good 24 hours and did some AB comparisons w/ my Bifrost 2 and my initial impressions are quite favorable. Played some jazz, female vocals and pop. The upper mids and trebles are much more "rounded" with cleaner resolution than the Bifrost 2 and as others have observed the tone is just spot on - as if the vocals and instruments are right here and true. Blackground is also improved with a "blank canvas" effect to the music presentation.

    The Yggdrasil LIM replaced the DAC in my Auralic Altair G1 - which is a ESS-based design. The Altair def. had a more dynamic, forward presentation which I did not like over headphones, but was fun + engaging over loudspeakers, but certain tracks especially female vocals and cymbals did sound overly bright at times and would get lightly fatiguing over longer listening sessions. I have not tried the LIM over headphones yet, but will do some listening later today.

    I wish I had a set of the OG boards to swap out and compare. I'd also echo what others have commented - the differences in DAC performance at this level are truly smaller and gets down to flavors and personal preferences. For the money - the Bifrost surprisingly kept up and was not completely out performed by any stretch.

    My other system components: Freya+ preamplifier, Audiolab CD transport and Hegel H190 in bypass mode with Focal Chora 826 speakers.

    Will provide more observations ... after my dump! ;-)
     
  17. loadexfa

    loadexfa MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    LIM Loaner Impressions
    I can see why this version of the Yggdrasil is so popular. It has the Schiit sound with a more relaxed presentation without going too dry like the A2 Gungnir. From memory, I prefer the OG, but this is a good option for Schiit fans wanting a more relaxed Yggdrasil.

    Base Chain
    Roon (Qobuz + Redbook) -> Pi2AES -> Pavane/LIM -> (see below)

    All listening was comparing the Pavane to the LIM.

    MJ1 + LCD-4
    • Pavane thick, rich, fuller
    • LIM slightly more crisp, very mild etch in mids/upper mids
    • LIM sometimes sounds off in tone/timbre. It's subtle, some Richard Bishop guitar (The Pillars of Baalbek) was more noticeable. Since many others like the LIM tone, perhaps I'm used to the Pavane's tone and the LIM is the accurate one.
    • LIM more lower/mid treble
    • LIM less exciting than OG (from memory) and slightly dry in comparison
    • Vocals I find the Pavane generally more enjoyable
    • Instruments I often prefer the Pavane (tone/timbre) but the LIM has better space between instruments
    • I think the OG and Pavane sound more accurate with OG being more lively and Pavane richer and smoother. This could be preference rather than actual "accuracy".
    Specific Music Thoughts
    • Sounds of Silence acoustic LIM better. More lively
    • Some percussion hits clearer/crisper/cleaner on LIM, mostly noticed with Peter Tosh Get Up, Stand Up and Blues Traveler Run Around
    • LIM better with "cluttered" music (Garbage, Metal Heart). I think this is because the Pavane mids are slightly elevated and reducing them helped with this song
    • Gold Dust Woman preferred the Pavane. Stevie Nicks loses some edge to her voice with LIM. I thought this a bit odd considering the Pavane is overall smoother.
    Stratus + Clear
    • LIM not more crisp now
    • Richness comments still true
    • Percussion hits as well
    • Garbage is no longer better with LIM
    • Pavane has more heft, I think I noticed this before too but didn't put in my notes when listening
    • Richard Bishop similar to previous comments, less bite in the guitar with the LIM and I preferred the Pavane
    • No longer noticing better instrument separation on the LIM
    Stratus + HD 800 (SDR)
    For classical listening (some orchestra pieces and piano concertos).
    • Not noticing better instrument separation on the LIM
    • Prefer Pavane for piano (tone/heft/bite), rest of the orchestra is a toss up

    Final Thoughts

    I found it interesting how my impressions changed when I switched chains. I imagine part of the issue is the LCD-4 being more detailed and revealing than the Clear. For people who find NOS too thick and the OG Yggdrasil too in your face, I think the LIM is an excellent option that many will enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  18. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I just received my black LiM today, so these are provisional impressions with limited warmup. My main point of comparison here is the XSP, which I compared against the OG Yggdrasil in a review elsewhere. Prior to that review, the OG Yggdrasil had been main DAC for 4+ years (I went from A1 to A2 in that time).

    I kept both the XSP and Yggdrasil OG in my DAC lineup for a few months after the above review. Eventually, I ended up selling the Yggdrasil while thinning my DAC herd. The XSP stayed. To summarize that decision, I felt that the Yggdrasil staged better than the XSP front-to-back. However, I don't think it pulled as much detail from the recordings as the XSP. Tradeoffs. The ultimate deciding factor was that, while the XSP was "brighter," it also was smoother than the Yggdrasil OG. As I heard more good DACs (not just the XSP, but the CS Solaris, the Forssell MDAC-2a, the Berkeley Ref1, and a bunch of vintage R2R 16/44.1 limited DACs), the Yggdrasil OG's upper-mids, lower-treble grain/sheen began to bother me more and more. I also felt it had a little mid-bass bloat that partially negated the its front-to-back staging, in that the former somewhat detracted from the latter's ability to aid in separating complex passages.

    All that is to say, while I don't have the Yggdrasil OG on hand to compare to the LiM, I have the main DAC I compared it against (the XSP). So the first thing I did when the LiM arrived was fire both up with an XLR switch box and put them through their paces. USB inputs were used for both. Thus far, I've done most of my listening with an Auralic Taurus MKII, which I find is a somewhat dark amp that stages flat but has good detail retrieval and separation. The main headphones I've used are the AT ATH-AWKT (bought from @Bloom), which are bright, but with nice soundstage and excellent detail. I stuck with the Taurus/AWKT combo in my evaluation of the LiM not necessarily because that's the best combo I have, but because it has good synergy and because it's what I've been listening to consistently for a few weeks.

    I've also been on a Pink Floyd kick. So I did most of my evaluation with the MFSL CD of Dark Side and the '90s remaster of Animals. I could go through tracks specifically, but this has already been a lot of throat clearing:

    In summary, the LiM is good. What @purr1n and Chris Connaker and Mike Moffatt have said? No lies detected.

    Tonal accuracy is superb. Blackground? Yes. Smooth as hell! No grain. Moffat bass is there. Slightly dark? Sure. Are you losing much detail? I can't say yet. The LiM is definitely dry sounding. But I'm not ready to say that you're actually losing detail.

    On things like the sound effects at the beginning of "Money," the LiM brings an element of realism that surpasses the XSP, something I attribute to the tonal accuracy that everyone has correctly highlighted. Same with acoustic guitars et al. Just excellent tonality.

    More than the above, though, the thing that's really stood out for me is the front-to-back staging (depth) and ability to separate complex passages. Stuff like the dense talk box parts on "Pigs (Three Different Ones)" is just way more discernible through the LiM than through the XSP. The latter tends to flatten everything. It feels more like a wash of sound. With the LiM I can pick out individual instruments and effects much better.

    The other thing about the staging of the LiM is that it stages further out and less "in your head"/between the ears than the XSP when listening on headphones. I haven't had my OG for a while, but that's what I always loved about it. However, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say the LiM is even better on that count. First, I don't feel like there's any mid-bass bloat in the LiM. Second, the LiM stages more wraparound/U-shaped (at least on headphones) than the OG did, and certainly more than the XSP does.

    Due to the wait, trying to be fiscally responsible, and varying reviews I almost cancelled my LiM order. Boy am I glad I didn't.
     
  19. scblock

    scblock Friend

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    Thanks to all who made this loaner possible. I've considered the Yggdrasil (in different forms) a few times over the years but the price and size always got to me, and the feeling that it was probably overkill for my relatively modest system. I'm grateful for the chance to listen to this recent version in my 2-channel setup. It'll be a lot easier to make a decision in the future.

    I made all comparisons on my main 2-channel stereo, with consistent equipment from the preamp on: Schiit Saga (OG), Russian Tung-Sol tube, Schiit Vidar, Vandersteen 2c speakers. My primary comparison was to the Schiit Bifrost Multibit from a late run of that DAC. So we're comparing an older "lower end" 16 bit multibit DAC to a new "TOTL" 16 bit multibit dac in a much larger form factor. Since my entire 2-channel system is single ended, all comparisons are based on the SE outputs from the Yggdrasil LIM.

    I didn't make any specific attempt to level match, and most of my listening was in extended (30+ minute) sessions rather than rapid back and forth. I listened at my typical levels, which are about 70-80 dB. Input to both DACs was coax SPDIF from a HifiBerry Digi+ Pro fed by Roon (still waiting on that Pi2AES).

    After listening to the Yggdrasil LIM and the Bifrost Multibit over the course of a few nights, I have just a few significant observations. My first and still primary impression was of a DAC that was like the Bifrost, but "more good" at everything; more engaging, more texture, more fun. I noted better macrodynamics and more bass slam, but still with that natural feeling and tonal balance I hear with the Bifrost Multibit. I also noted a slightly blacker background and better imaging than the older DAC.

    It isn't night and day better, but in total the Yggdrasil LIM improves on the Bifrost Multibit in the ways that matter to me. At the same time, I'm relieved that the differences aren't so great that I feel like the DAC I already own is now bad.
    Since I haven't heard any other variant of the Yggdrasil (A1, A2/OG, etc.) I couldn't say how much of the difference I hear can be assigned to the bigger and more sophisticated power supply in the Yggdrasil, how much to the set of TI DAC8812 16-bit DACs over the single AD5547 16-bit DAC in the Bifrost Multibit, or really how much to the better output stage on the DAC board.

    On to non-sound aspeects. On size, the Yggdrasil is large, too large for a desktop setup. But for a 2-channel setup it's fine. It's pretty much the same size as any standard stereo component from the old days, including my CD player, cassette deck, or older Parasound amp and preamp. It dwarfs the Saga and Vidar though. The LIM got only slightly warm over the course of several days. Power switch on the back is no big deal, as I would leave a DAC like this on all the time anyways. I do wish Schiit would update the overall Yggdrasil line to support remote control like they did for the Bifrost 2. I don't know how hard that would be, but I also don't think there's a need for such a quality of life change to wait for a mythical completely redesigned "Yggdrasil 2" either.
     
  20. mhanism1

    mhanism1 New

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    So got a bit more listening in on the Yggdrasil LIM over headphones and loudspeakers. For digital sources I picked up a Zen Stream (plus a LPS) connected over USB and also my Audiolab CD Transport over coaxial. I must say Schiit's Unison USB implementation is pretty legit. I've fuddled w/ their Wyrd USB de-crappifier and Bifrost 1 several years ago, and this is leagues ahead and I couldn't say the coaxial input was any better or worse.

    I continue to be very impressed with the LIM's black-ground and tone. Was listening the an older album - Dave Matthews Band Crash - Lie in Our Graves, and there's a jam session towards the second half of the track w/ people conversing in the background, and while I was able to make out the beg and end of the chattering, with the LIM I was able to make out the ppl chatter all throughout. I never realized they were chatting through the entire jam session. The LIM sound signature is addictive in how it pulls you into the music while also reproducing a good sense of space and soundstage. I feel this is what good audio reproduction should aim for - creating a live/concert effect. Vocals also continue to impress - a part of this is probably my brain adjusting a bit to sound, but very good.

    I'd also echo scblock's thoughts - the bifrost 2 is no slouch by any means. With the Yggdrasil LIM you just get a heighten sense of musicality, black ground and maybe cleaner tone, but its probably the diff between noon and 5pm and not night and day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2021

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