Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    He shouts from the peanut gallery!! Now your getting it. Wagging your finger at American libertarians and their tradition(s) is just a wee bit hypocritical when in actuality you are in essential agreement with them on almost everything

    Or perhaps it's not...the old saying that there is 'nothing nastier than a church fight' comes to mind , this just being a skirmish within the libertarian cathedral ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  2. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    But this is why I brought up the Paradox of Tolerance, and why it is so disappointing that it whooshed right over so many heads. The concept was born out of the thought experiment of how to deal with Nazis, and goes a little something like this:
    Libertarian: Hey Nazis, you can't do that!
    Nazis: LOL, you're libertarian, you're not allowed to stop me.
    Libertarian: Zounds! You've highlighted my hypocrisy, my only weakness! Please, do your thing, I can't stop you.

    The paradox of tolerance is a very effective moral framework that gives libertarians the right to fight back against literal Nazis, right down to libertarians not letting people into their house to steal their shit, and everything in between. It also explains rather nicely why 'real' libertarians is such a bullshit concept - they would get trounced by fascists. The only thing that lets 'real' libertarians convince themselves that it is a legitimate belief is that they are still protected by the moral and legal framework of wider society.

    The only question now, is where you draw the line in the balance. Do we allow racists to be outright racist, and homophobes to be outright homophobic? Does tolerance allow us to ban people from housing, or refuse service in a store because of the color of their skin or their choice of sexual partner?

    No. Tolerance does not go both ways equally - cannot go both ways equally - in a liberal society. Yes, it's a paradox. An essential paradox. Without accepting and working within the paradox, there is a guaranteed path to fascism.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You know what I say about audio: take reviews with a grain of salt, but ultimately look to see what gear survives long term in peoples' systems. That tells you what's good and what's not.

    Trump got his vaccine way way before I could get mine. When he got sick, he got the best treatment: antivirals, antibodies, corticosteroids. He also got a booster. All this was in the news... just mainstream news didn't like reporting this because it's boring. Anything not contentious makes for bad news and poor readership.

    Beats me why people want alternative treatments when the man himself is doing things by the book.
     
  4. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    you are significantly better at saying what I am trying to say than me so I am going to leave it to you
     
  5. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    i mean from an anthropological perspective, i kind of agree with marv. we are in the middle of a global pandemic and people are going to act the way they have during every pandemic in history. yes, on paper things could have happened differently, but why would they? people are people. think of america as you would 500 years in the future, or like we're the roman empire. from that perspective it's easy to see what happened, why, and precisely how it was probably unavoidable
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  6. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Yet, are not the people of Texas working within this framework/paradox? They believe the unborn (which was you and me at one point) are human beings (as did even the Roman's by the way, even when they were aborting/killing children through "exposure" by leaving them in the wilderness) and it is immoral to kill them, and this killing should not be tolerated, and by being tolerant of this injustice toward the unborn the whole society is itself unjust.

    Not that I have studied it, but this "paradox" strike me as just a restatement of Classical Liberalism and its central attempt to balance the "rights/interests" of the individual with the "rights/interests" of the community/culture/society/states. This is not unique to Classical Liberalism, as all theoretical, practical, and actual governing praxis through history deals directly/indirectly with this.

    Classical Liberalism, born as it was out political and religious internecine conflict, does its best to recognize all parties and theological anthropologies, making the claim (which in the end is itself a metaphysical and moral assertion) that there is this secular ground and space of community, and that differing world views/theologies can "just get along" and live together in a more or less neutral society/culture.

    Classical Liberalism, both theoretically and practically/historically has a central weakness however, and that is this question "what is man(anthropos)", and its corollaries "Who is a man, or some percentage of man {3/5 a person}, when is a man (are there points in the life cycle when a man is not a man), and how do you determine which men are persons under the full protection of the law?" For us in America, neither slavery nor racism was answered by CL itself, but rather the underlying Christendom of the people (what scholars call "the Protestant consensus") and its theological anthropology. It was dirty business with a war, hangings, marches, fire hoses and dogs, and ultimate appeals to the universality of our "character". Still, CL was the overarching context of these conflicts, and obviously still is today - it's written into our legal and cultural framework, and it is who we are.

    Thing is progressivism is trying to claim this secular/neutral ground as its own - that it is the arbitrator of theological, anthropological, and thus moral questions. Your particular theological anthropology, and the morality that flows from this, the who/what a human being is what it is, and what a human beings sexuality means is your own. Because the people of Texas (or Christians, or Muslims, or Jews, or fill_in_the_blank) do not happen to agree with your beliefs, you are willing to brand them fascist, pseudo Nazi's, and otherwise "bad" people. I have no doubt that you really believe this, but it does not make it true. In fact it is both theoretical and historical nonsense, and just reveals the shallowness of your reflection on these subjects.

    It also points to what is so dangerous about the current progressive/leftist world view: it does not recognize it's own religious commitments, it's own crusading moral righteousness. It views "the other" at best as an object of pity to be "enlighted" by itself (via 'education', etc.), excepting when "the other" gets in the way then they are to be treated no differently than Nazi's.

    I'm not sure how the sexual revolution, which itself is relatively new and took over the civil rights movement and its momentum, will turn out - will CL grant it ultimate status? Will CL do its job and moderate its claims such that even though the majority assent to it minorities and their way of life will be protected, if not exactly "recognized"? I am beginning to see a real pushback against the arrogance of the progressive worldview by what is in fact larger, older, and deeper in the American character: libertarianism. I support this reaction 100%. I would rather live in Texas than progressive Canada/California fer sur. Neckbeards, those so called "fascists'" and "Nazis", are not my enemy...

    I've got to get away from the comment box and get some work done! :confused:
     
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  7. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    as a member of the ever-shrinking liberal left (i mean both of those words fully and with their actual definitions) it's difficult for me to abide criticisms of people's handling of the pandemic because i can't excuse what they are: victim blaming. we're all in a pandemic killing millions of people. this is a mass trauma event, and i don't know how i feel about lambasting people for not handling trauma perfectly immediately
     
  8. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    I don't buy that the abortion debate is actually about the morality of abortion honestly. If men were the ones who got pregnant, I don't think we'd be having an abortion debate.
     
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Bingo. This has come at the dinner table several times with my kids. I tell the women in the family that I recuse myself from this.
     
  10. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    It's about $$$$. Why set up these groups where they have big giant million dollar meetings in Washington DC over one single subject? $$$$$$ I read this article before Trump lost that he was middle of a big gala hosed by one of the big Pro-Life groups in Washington DC, and everyone looked fancy like rich people.

    Just like Gun Rights and Gun-Control.
    Just like LGBT Issues and Religious Issues.
    Just like Vax and Anti-Vax Issues.
    Just like every single other right where there's a giant PAC raking in the millions.

    I chosen the wrong profession if I wanna be rich.
     
  11. Soliloqueen

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    Not directly related, but when I first sat down in a group of Chinese feminists I was blown away by how completely different their moral landscape about it was and how relative this argument is. over there abortion is universally an invention of the patriarchy invented to inhibit the natural female power of childbirth, and the entire concept of inhibiting that power is considered misogynistic. the entire practice of believing one has the right to select what babies get born is considered inherently eugenicist too, even if done by the mother, and it makes sense that they'd develop an ideological framework for their fight that's the opposite of the pro-choice framework in america: because they have the opposite problem. it really showed me how culturally relative not only a lot of these fights are, but even the entire systems of ethics constructed around these fights.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Do you always hate on people who have different beliefs than you? Paint them in a way that makes them monsters?
     
  13. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    Whether or not its fair to hate on people who have different beliefs than you depends entirely on what those beliefs are. For example, if you believe black people are subhuman or gay people should be stoned to death, it's completely reasonable for me to hate on you. If you believe that you personally shouldn't have an abortion or have sex before marriage, that's totally fair even if I don't believe those things are wrong
     
  14. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    I vehemently disagree with this idea. But then, I take this topic personally. I, and my brother, were both adopted as newborns in a pre Roe v. Wade world (mid/late 1960's). My personal opinion is that neither of us would exist had we been conceived 5 years later.
     
  15. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    I don't think you would have minded not existing
     
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  16. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    That's understandable, given your background. I know a lot of people who grew up in the modern system (which, by all accounts, is much worse) who are vehemently pro-choice precisely because they were adopted. The modern adoption system is basically human trafficking for children at the worst of times and many adoptees see abortion as preferable. The adoption industry has become big $$$ and they're actually behind a huge chunk of anti-abortion lobbying.
     
  17. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    I haven’t really been paying much attention at all to China, and didn’t realize they have a “zero-COVID” policy. My province (in Canada) had been sort of striving for that (and achieving it at times) through the pandemic, but Omicron has utterly annihilated that concept, and we’re swimming in cases.

    In light of Omicron, I can’t see how China can actually achieve this without decimating their economy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Except we aren't talking extreme edge cases here.

    Wife and I are friends with lots of LDS (lol, this is kind of a joke among us). They hold what would be considered very traditional beliefs when it comes to family, sex, marriage. We have great open conversations, to the point where I can joking ask about their magic underwear. :D In turn, they have on occasion invited us (and of course our kids) to "certain" events and functions, of which we always politely decline. It's cute. We're honored. And they continue to be friends despite us always declining.

    I don't think I've ever met people who actually believe black, asian, or jewish people are subhuman or that gay people should be stoned. (Although I've known east-indians, other asians, and jewish parents who forbid their daughters dating black guys). The most I've ever uncomfortable was in certain parts of well to do parts of Kentucky when my wife and I got funny looks- miscegenation ya know.

    Point is that I can see "liberal" or "progressive" elements demonizing our LDS friends into monsters they are not.
     
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  19. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    It's funny you mention your LDS friends, since it was church doctrine until the late 70s to place restrictions on black people from obtaining certain positions within the church or participating in activities in some temples because of the curse of ham. I don't have problem with people living by their own belief systems and structuring their lives to follow those beliefs like your LDS friends as long as they only consider them personal choices, not rules they want to subject everyone too.

    You're lucky if you haven't met people who believe certain people are subhuman. I've had different experiences. The KKK was still active some of the places I grew up and there are American groups who still send people out internationally to lobby for anti-gay laws, such as those that have been exacted in some parts of Africa
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    We aren't gonna change their minds no matter what. Take solace in that Robert E. Lee statues are being removed and young people in the south have much different views today. I was hoping that a compromise could be reached and that a statue of MLK or General Sherman could be placed next to the Robert E. Lee statues for "historical" purposes. (I've found the historical rationale utter nonsense). I used to live in Michigan and I can tell you there are some scary parts in Michigan and Ohio where you don't want to be if you are black. That was 20 years ago, so things could have changed.

    There's still stupidity around. A black neighbor posted on Next Door that his mailbox was destroyed for the fifth time, likely by some racist cracker. I empathized with him because it's so obvious he was being targeted. Some white dickhead of course had to post that people here weren't racist and that there was a difference between being racist and prejudice. That it was likely a random punk, who may have been prejudiced, but most certainly not racist - because there's absolutely no way a racist person could live on Padre Island, the nice part of Corpus! Others pointed out what's the f'ing difference? I just sort of shook my head and stopping reading.

    --

    Anyway with respect to demonizing people who have traditional views on the family - such is the climate today. We can't even compromise on legislation on social programs and climate change, so how could we even possibly compromise on very closely held beliefs?

    @Kunlun and @SoupRKnowva: this is for you:

    Lower Decks (the animated show that takes place circa ST:TNG on a starship with less glamorous functions, e.g. second contact, etc.), there was an episode where one of the main characters Boimler, always aiming for that promotion, is learning about diplomacy and the art of compromise. The gist is that nobody is truly happy when they compromise, but at least people get along, do something, and move on. It struck me how compromise is seen as a loss. It really is a loss. But it's also what moves us forward, which is better than staying in place or going backwards.

    “If we're both unhappy, it means we've reached… a compromise!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022

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