I made a hyper-engaging headphone with HD800S drivers

Discussion in 'Modifications and Tweaks' started by Bill-P, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    [​IMG]
    ^ From back to front: Defean hybrid 110mm, Geekria ATH, Blon BL30. Just stuff I had laying around.

    BP800 dh110.jpg
    ^ I tried these quickly (with EQ) and the treble was piercing. Pads also too big, too much clamp.
    BP800 G ATH.jpg
    ^ Not enough bass, didn't listen
    BP800 BL30.jpg
    ^ Not enough bass, didnt listen
    BP800 bwh and Loki.jpg
    ^ Previously, upon first impressions (without eq) I found the upper bass a little overdone. Previously, with extended listening the excess warmth and mild extended bass release issues were fatiguing. The 4.5kHz peak also a bit piercing. I think I jumped to conclusions and was confounding all the sources of fatigue as mainly an excessive extended bass release issue (too much pressure). And I may have been listening too loudly out of excitement for new toy (shuffling through track with different average volumes makes things worse). I now think these do have less dense foam with more porosity (i tried breathing through the pads) than the other Brainwavz. I'll give these some careful extended listening with and without eq and report back. So far so good (without eq). When I switched ON Loki+ the 4.5kHz peak became a little more noticeable and a little more piercing, did not like.

    TLDR: So, Brainwavz hybrid better bass decay characteristics but less smooth trebles (4.5k) in comparison to Brainwavz velour.

    Ordered a different set of Sennheiser pads. Arrive this weekend prob

    edit: I'll take CSD of Brainwavz hybrid and compare to velour.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2022
  2. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    Figured I'd try again at the bottom of the capsule. Used an X-acto knife to angle out the hole like I did with the HD800s. The thicker material and stiffer part of the oval capsule makes it a more solid fit. I still flexes a bit if you push on the connector, but I think it would work here. Too bad I only have 1 of these connectors left over that I ordered as a spare (reminder to self: order 2 spares next time).

    connector 1.jpg

    connector 2.jpg

    connector 3.jpg


    In an attempt to reduce the mechanical noise transmitted from the cable (a.k.a. "microphonics"), something I also find problematic with the HD650s, I applied some tack (Faber-Castell stuff left over from modding T50RPs) at the bottom of the capsule. It was effective at damping out conducted noise by about 50%, so I decided to go all the way around, a total of 14g per cup. This should be easily reversible, unlike Dynamat.

    tack 1.jpg

    I thought there might be some effect on the bass, but was surprised at how much, thinking that application around the driver would be required for that. Bass is definitely tighter and has more heft and impact. I reduced the bass shelf at 100Hz by 1dB and compensated to keep the subbass lift at 25Hz the same. There also seems to be more "immediacy" to vocals and tightening of the sound overall., but this is possibly/probably confirmation-placebo.

    The extra weight also makes them feel a bit more solid when you pick them up.

    tack 2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
  3. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    @gixxerwimp What about some right angle connectors?

    RE: hybrid pads. Listened to them for a couple hours yesterday and woke with a bit of tinnitus this morning. While listening yesterday (without eq), extended bass release was not worse than the other Brainwavs, actually prob better than (velour with eq). Just tonally warmer vs (velour with eq). The issue is its 4.5kHz peak is fatiguing. On a scale of 1-10 on the Grado scale of pain Id rate it a 4.5. That puts your eardrums at about medium heat. Acceptable while in rapture but you may wake up with regret.*

    FYI, I only listened to whole albums and I didnt turn it up to compensate for environmental noise or for fun.

    Im going to try taking CSD with both fpc and EARS. Previously my fpc didnt show the 4.5kHz ringing as well. I think it might be the compsensation / calibration curve. wip

    *I bought a cheap Grado, arrives today. :)
    I bought a 6XX as well for reference since all my other headphones are modded, arrives not today but soon.
     
  4. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    BP800 100db EARS bwh CSD.jpg
    BP800 fpc 100db bwh CSD.jpg
    Ya, my fpc still needs calibration. Hopefully 6XX reference will sort. But I posted the measurements anyway for your enjoyment. This is with Brainwavz hybrids. I had to accommodate the different frequency responses so axis limits are not the same between fpc and EARS CSD. "Measurements are hard."

    As for the 4.5kHz peak, its not obvious piercing, more like lightly grating over extended use (a la Grado). Listening right now to one of my fav rock albums and I dont hear issues but only awesome. Anyways, I'll save commenting on hybrid pads further until much more use and can lay down final judgements. Will compare to 6XX.

    Going to write impressions on Grado GW100 and 6XX before coming back to BP800. Any friend (or possibly contributor) can borrow this BP800 in meantime for impressions and to try heir own mods, send me a PM. @purr1n @Vtory etc

    FYI EARS is supposed to be less qualified for csd and distortion measurements which is why Im building a fpc rig.

    edit: My BP800 is going to @Vtory . Stay tuned for his much more reliable impressions. Im sure there will be better mods (like @Bill-P ’s ) available for loaner tour soon so Id recommend waiting but if you cant wait then mine are available now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
  5. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    Quick follow-up: I settled on 1 driver port open and added a 1/2-crescent shaped piece of Faraday tape to the bottom of the baffle. The tuning is very flat for me now, with only a touch of bass EQ needed to level out the very bottom end. I also used some craft foam taped to the back of the pads to angle them out a bit more, which makes for a nice sausage-shaped stage.

    If you look closely, the fiberglass that @Bill-P mentioned is visible in the bottom half of the baffle. He said "one extra", so I guess it's an additional layer of fiberglass under the Faraday cloth at the bottom half of the baffle. That's basically where I have 2 layers of Faraday cloth. It also looks like he left 1 driver port open too ;)

    The straight ones are wobbly enough already. A right angle connector would put even more torque on it, and the angle would be too extreme and difficult to use. Plus, I think the only right angle connectors available are for surface mount on PCBs.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=rig...9AqYQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1536&bih=707&dpr=1.25

    I may seem fixated with the Rean female connectors, but they have worked for me very well in several applications and provide a solid, wiggle-free connection. I'd have to order from the US, so I'm tempted to scavenge one from the HD650 adapters I made.

    Even though I rarely listen to HD650 lately, it would be a shame to undo all the hard work I put into these. So I guess I'll just hold off until my next order in to Mouser.
     
  6. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    There seem to be far more sets of capsules shipped out than reports back on how they turned out for people. Did nobody else follow through on this?
     
  7. Noodlz

    Noodlz Almost "Made"

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    I’m guilty of not building out my set yet. In the middle of shifting out my whole chain, and will likely not build out my BP800s until im done, which is hopefully really soon.

    really appreciate u guys digging head first into this tho. Beautiful work thus far. Creates an interesting frame of reference for when I do get to build this out. (I may take a pretty different approach tho. Gonna see if I can make it work with the shore alcantera pads. May add dynamat. May add copper foil tape. Will report back on progress once I make some ~
     
  8. RestoredSparda

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    Dealing with some chronic health issues but hope to join the party soon!
     
  9. paradox88

    paradox88 New

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    the pads are in!!!
    All brainwavz, all sheepskin, all oval and one pro stock something that fit only the meze 99 in this house :(

    1st point: Dekoni is just str8 up better quality... better leather, better foam, better stitching... 3x the price
    2nd point: Yaxi, with some hax, might be like the best of all worlds but ordering them is beyond my power level so far...
    3rd point: the angled ones are much softer than the flat ovals and seal way better than the flat oval and the shure federated velour pads (the stock ones of the 1540).

    Using the shure pads as a reference
    => angled ones have crazy bass for some reason, crazy in a good way. can hear the rumble in "Mountains" by Hans Zimmer all the time but anything between ~1k and ~2k (no measurements yet, leaning on easyeffect's visualizer) takes a half step back away from the mic
    the pads are so soft that the angle feels unnoticeable to the flats

    => flat ones have a bit more base than the reference to my ears, the half step kind of goes away but still feels that the 1-2k area is more scooped out than reference

    nothing strange on the top end but i'm still testing.

    ps: a triangular notch in the ring that holds the pads could ease pad swaps, gonna try printing a model with notches at some point (a friend got a creality ender 6 this week)
     
  10. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Late to the party. My good friend, Phil, kindly loaned me his pair of BP800 so that I could test out myself. Secretly reading various posts in this thread, I'm very excited.

    Pic or didn't happen.

    [​IMG]

    Of course I used to try out every FOTM myself, but I had somewhat clearer purpose this time around in borrowing his pair. I was eager to get some sense of DIYing (or commissioning if necessary) BP800. I do have a huge ambition to build my own personalized one-off headphones someday. I originally thought to use the current small capsules, replicate what Phil and others did, dial in with EQ to finalize tonal balance, then call it a day. The loaner is kinda for the feasibility testing to some extent.

    Here are preliminary impressions. Please note that my sonic preference might be very unusual and childish. Not to mention any assessment is subject to change as I dial in better... or my brain-burning proceeds. Take any of sentences below with a grain of salt.

    Comfort
    • I re-confirmed I didn't like hd6x0 headband at all. Clamping is for sure, but the way this headband presses headtop is also showbreaker. Maybe I can slap something like zmf pilot. But I don't think even doing so give me the same comfort level of hd800. Moreover, I'm largely thinking I may need much larger capsule for another reason. More on this later.
    • I got brainwavz oval hybrid earpads and another velour pads which I'm guessing brainwavz's ones. Hybrid ones were equipped on, so sticked to them. I largely prefer leather, pleather, or polyester surfaced ones to velour/hybrid-velour.
    Dial-In
    • Unlike my pre-thoughts, the loaner bp800 unit needed serious equalization work on my end.
    • I should reduce lower midrange a bit first then had to mess with highs to make it sound right to me.
    • What's worse, one peak around 4-5 khz (shown in both Phil and Bill's measurements) was more bothersome. I thought the peak was some kind of measurement artifacts. Narrow shape also convinced me not to worry too much as I won't be able to hear lol. Unfortunately, it was not the case. Not sure if it inherently came from 800og drivers, but at least to me it's nearly as painful as HD800OG. Rather, Phil's unit's decent balance seemed to make the peak more audible.
    • And.. EQ-wise, BP800 (at least the unit I'm testing) wasn't as workable as something like HD8XX. Lows to mids didn't have much trouble, but filters targeting highs more often than not behaved in unpredictable ways.
    • Anyway I finally managed to reach enjoyable status. Still dialing in here and there tho. So far, filters are more complicated than what I built for 8XX.
    Sound
    • My thoughts below are off my upstream rig (see my sig) with all my eq filters on.
    • Overall they sounded good. With several things done noticeably better than 6x0.
    • Probably because of 800 drivers, detail retrievals are right up there with 800. Maybe a tick or two behind 800/800S in highs, but still very good to me.
    • Transient character is not bad, either. Can be rivaled by a few. And only bested by uber metal electrodynamics, electrostatics, or higher end orthos.
    • Although EQ helped a bit, mid-treble peak is still infrequently audible. Once this popped up, I hear weird and incohesive hotness in certain notes. Should try with more various tracks. Note that eqing this part is as tricky to me as hd800.
    • Not as obvious as the mid treble peak, but upper midrange sounded slightly off to me from time to time. Needs more tests.
    • This unit must be equipped with 800og drivers if I'm not mistaken. But weirdly general bass characters felt more like 800"S". Slightly warm, less articulate, and a hint of boominess. This also needs more tests.
    • Headstage may be my biggest grief. Still more spacious than my modded 6xx, but leagues narrower and shallower than higher end Stax/HFMs. Regardless, rendered images are diffusing for the stage size. I'm hypothesizing internal dimension may be too small for this driver. Unsure how much I can improve this via eq (a little skeptical for now). I surmise bigger cups, larger internal space, and more distance from ears (along with steeper angels) would help. HE90 capsule and angled pads look more interesting to me but I digress.
    So.. that's pretty much for now.

    I may have a few more days to play with this bp800 pair. Looking forward to dial in better toward my preference. Will update my thoughts before returning the unit to Phil. Maybe will take some measurements to see if they're aligned with my perception.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
  11. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    From the photo it looks like you have the HD600 headband. I found the 4 blocks of foam very uncomfortable, but the HD650 headband pad with the Klingon ridge gap is very comfortable.

    Both OG HD800 and "S" drivers will fit (same form factor). I also found the bass a bit bloomy (OG drivers), but this tightened up significantly when I added mass sampling to the capsules. I found the BrainWavz hybrid pads to contribute a lot to midbass bloom.

    The stage is definitely smaller and shallower than HD800, but I find the imaging to be much tighter and layering more clearly defined. My modded HD800 have a less diffuse image than stock, but my BP800 (old HD650 pads) has way sharper imaging and gives me a sense of immersion into the soundstage. Listening to Joe Jackson's Body and Soul, it really feels like I'm in the center of the Masonic hall they recorded it in, surrounded by the orchestra (although placement isn't totally natural due to the mix). Vocal microdynamics are more obvious, and there's a more tactile sense to the sound compared to HD800.

    It's late here so I'll post more listening impressions tomorrow.
     
  12. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    That's right. I also like 650 headband over 600's one. But my general complaint isn't too different between the two. To me it's a matter of problem onset timing.. 650 remains bearable a little longer, but beyond a certain point it develops annoyance anyhow. My head seems sensitive to this component.

    I largely agreed. In general, I found headstage size was negatively associated with imaging crispness. Compared to my 800 mods experience (note: light ones only btw -- sdr or a tp layer added to sdr), I'd also say bp800 sounded tighter. This morning, inspired by your post, I'm testing with Joe Jackson's tracks. They're very pleasing with bp800.

    I may be over-demanding returns against staging costs. I'm coming from higher end Stax and HFM, and had convincing results with 8XX after successfully correcting them in this respect. But bp800 I'm testing isn't quite there yet tbh. Of course your bp800 seems tuned for your taste, and this bp800 must be tuned for Phil's preference rather than mine.. it can be a huge confounding factor imho.

    Still experimenting to boost and cut various points between midrange and lower treble. Some of them help a bit to my ears. It seems to need more work to get universally robust results tho. But we will see.

    6x0 pads seem worthy. I do know they have many acoustic benefits.. but I'm having serious and various ergonomic issues with them. They're are one of items I'd avoid any day if possible. Oh well.
     
  13. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    My one nitpick with the velour HD6xx pads is they squeak against my glasses when I move my jaw slightly. Otherwise, they're quite comfortable for me. But everyone's head is different, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Oh, and if you don't want to use adhesive to stick them onto BP800, you have to dissect another set of pads to create mounts for them.
     
  14. paradox88

    paradox88 New

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    :D the angled pads idea worked for me, brainwavz oval angles sheepskin won out over the flat, now i'm even more curious to slap some old audeze pads on these (tried the audeze pads 1st, before any baffle sealing material and the bass was not invited to the party... but now if i stick the audeze pads they are gonna take the baffle tape with them on removal).

    also the angle kinds of makes them a bit warmer to me.


    regarding the HE90 capsules... omg u can buy those?!?!
     
  15. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    A little more on EQ.
    I'm still in the middle of optimizing filters. But the headphones started to sound convincing to me. Let me quickly explain what filters I use and why I thought them necessary.

    I haven't measured the loaner unit yet (too lazy to pull out the fixation) .. but perhaps it might be helpful for interested people to refer to Phil's brainwavz hybrid results if necessary. Please note there will be some discrepancies between my (real) human head/ears/perception and his measurement rig/calibration.

    upload_2022-2-13_5-49-31.png

    Filters description
    • Filter 1: The unit as is sounded too much bassy to me. Upper bass seemed to bleed into midrange and somewhat damage its clarity. I suppressed upper bass broadly to make bass sound a little tighter (also hoping some midrange benefit).
    • Filters 2/4: These filters intend to tame slightly biting or sibilant trebles that were often heard with my music. They do affect different instruments, but their functions largely resemble each other.
    • Filter 3: This would be the least successful among the bunch. Still changing center frequency and gain of the dip filter. This anyhow helps a bit.. but eventually I might rather want something like (physical) resonators.
    • Filter 5: After settling down the filters above, I found the sound slightly duller than I wanted. Couldn't figure out specific center frequencies of this issue. Instead, I raised the whole trebles a bit by using the shelf.
    • There's no need to apply global gain in this specific configuration.. but I anyway applied a tiny negative gain for the peace of the mind.
    I believe some of the digital filters I use can be acoustically replaced with alternative pads. But I don't have many options atm given my dispreference toward velour/6x0 pads. I'm having fun with digital messing, too. lol.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
  16. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I believe Bill's original design matches to HE90 pads. And that capsule is much larger than the current smaller one (I think he posted comparative picture somewhere). And I'm speculating larger oval cups will benefit from several acoustic and ergonomic aspects. I'm dreaming to use it with HFM oval pads (shown in HE1000 or Shangri-La) as they do angle.
     
  17. paradox88

    paradox88 New

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    i misunderstood, was thinking that u found a supplier for the Orpheus drivers as, for some reason, senn calls the drivers they sell... capsules.
    imho a diy Orpheus would be insane
     
  18. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    It's a little off topic to this thread. But there IS another DIY project led by one estat guru to replicate HE90 from scratch. Senior members had their ears on the prototype a few years ago and were unanimously wowed. The plan for mass production seems on hold for now (unsure if it's because of Covid or his real world situations) but I really want to get my hands on them some day.

    If you're interested, please visit this thread: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...g-he90-orpheus-clone-loaner-impressions.3569/

    Sorry for derailing the thread!
     
  19. paradox88

    paradox88 New

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    checking it out :D ty

    on topic: gonna jerry rig the oval pads to be more round, all the pads have a small overlap with the driver but these angled pads are cut in a strange way that the overlap is a bit rounded
     
  20. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    I've got more Rean female 3.5mm connectors incoming, so I took the plunge and X-acto'd out my good R capsule and mounted the Rean at a forward facing angle. No more digging into my collarbone and a significant reduction in "microphonics". The tools my dentist gave me came in handy for working with the tack.

    BP800 Rean.jpg

    BP800 Rean side.jpg
    Bill said he's still tweaking the grills, so once those are done they'll pretty much be finished.


    Like with my modded HD800, my optimum chain for BP800 is SFD-1 Mk2 > SW51+ (Blackburn Mullards). I was comparing the stage size of the SFD-1 with BF2 and there seemed to be a much bigger difference than I remembered. Usually there's a 15-20% increase in perceived stage going from BF2 to SFD-1. But with BP800, it's more like 30-40% increase. Using the Shaker Walkaround track on Chesky's Ultimate Headphone Demonstration, it sounds like Dr Chesky took a step back with SFD-1 compared to BF2, whereas there's only a slight (but noticeable) difference with HD800. The OG still has a bigger sense of space, but doesn't gain as much from whatever magic the SFD-1 is doing.

    The conclusion I pulled out of my butt: BP800 is able to better reproduce the spatial information provided by the source ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2022

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