Putin's War With Ukraine (and democracy, freedom, self-determination, etc.)

Just scanned this thread.
Going to Warsaw in 10 days where Ukrainian refugees, lots and lots of them, are the coming every day and most of them are getting help. I have two young women with children in my apartment in Warsaw, they came three weeks ago and children are already going to school. Fathers are in the army.
In Poland no one has illusions who is the aggressor, who is Putin, and that Europe will not be safe until he is dead. Once the war started, Putin is doing the killing of innocent people, that what maters.

In the US extremely smooth transition of MSNBC, CNN, NYT from hating Trump to hating Putin, warmongering, and calling for actions that must result in all out war, is a clear example that the American media has indeed become the real enemy of the people. All the people.
Because no one in Poland, Baltic Republics etc. wants the war. Of course they are all involved in helping the refugees and sending military aid to Ukrainians.
But they consider NATO to be a defensive pact, serious about article 5, not a bunch of crooked politicians that could be pushed into a war by the media.
Consider that Blinken even tried to trick the Polish government into flying old Russian jets to Ukraine, without consulting it with Pentagon.
Do not believe anything you hear from the American media about this war. Check it.
Yes there is war there, people are fighting and dying, but do not get tricked into the war pornography, the lies about "ghost of Kiev", Snake Island, tens of thousands of civilian casualties etc..It may happen though.
And into yelling treason when someone is asking questions about if this war could be avoided, or why the dangerous pathogens, those that Victoria Nulan is so concerned about, were not destroyed even though the US intelligence was right about Putin's timing and intentions.
Ukraine needs weapons and humanitarian aid, Western Europe is waking up understanding that their dumb delusions about energy made them vulnerable and impotent. But no one there is interested what MSNBC "experts" think about it.
But of course everyone is looking to the US for leadership. And what they see? Biden 79, Harris (age does not matter), Pelosi (81), memories of Kabul, the media talking trash and calling for war.

 

Well stated. I'd give you 3 thumbs up if I could. This is a clever comment I read today:

"Russia has state-run media. America is a media-run state"

A lot of truth in it, though I think the MSM in America is really just the lazy patsy of the liberal hegemony - they know it's what their customers (i.e. the mostly woke corporations who advertise on them) want.

I watched a bit of press corps grilling the white house over and over (and over and over) why Biden is not doing more, sending weapons, sending jets, making war on Russia (i.e. establishing a "no fly zone"). I thought "who are these people, and what happened to the real journalists??". Well, they were replaced by the MSM zombie's because there's more money in such things. They report the truth only when it's easy and uncomplicated, and war is neither.

The "populist" core that elected Trump too easily gets suckered in by the seemingly macho and righteous neo-conservative right/left, but this time I don't think it's going to last that long. The fundamentals of the Deplorables and the Bitter Clingers are still the same and only getting worse (inflation, etc.). Too many Americans know someone who was involved in the Crusade in the middle east, and have a clue about its failure and the damage it does.

Zelensky is doing his best trying to tie our fate in with "the fate of us is the fate of Europe and the fate of all!!", but that's so thin I don't think even the Crusaders are going to be able to sell it for more than a few weeks...about the time it will take the MSM to realize their losing eyeballs and move on to the next thing...maybe Antarctica or something...

 

If I was the Russian head of state 'who shall not be named', I would be telling the US publicly and privately that my navy will be sinking your merchant vessels and my airforce will be shooting your cargo transports that carry such things out of the sky...just saying...not that Russia would be particularly good at that because their military doctrine is such that they don't "project power" well at all, the irony of the narrative going on and on about the threat of a new Russian world empire notwithstanding.

@wormcycle , do you speak Ukrainian? My church channels are telling us to expect refugees in the next 3-6 months so there's a real chance I will be hosting some refugees...my wife is stressed as she's more of an introvert/private person than I am.

 

It was explicit. RUS Foreign Minister said NATO arms were 'legitimate targets.' Missiles hit west Ukraine a day later.

It is possible to be morally right and also dead.

 

No I do not, people who are staying in my place speak Polish a bit, but one of two women speaks fluent English. We talked on the phone. A lot of younger people do. English is extremely popular in former USSR orbit countries, so maybe you would not have to learn Ukrainian .
It is interesting what's going to happen next. Poland is a host to a lot of Ukrainians who came to work, before the war there was at least one million,,but they were mostly men 20-50. They integrate extremely well, are hard working, and most learned Polish pretty well. But now it is 1.5 mln mostly women and children. Men had to stay and fight And Ukrainian men from Canada and Poland are traveling in opposite direction, there is entire Canadian unit in Ukrainian army. Those are tough and motivated people.
If the war ends without too much additional devastation I would expect most of the refugees would want to go back. They were teachers, business owners etc..The kids staying now in my apartment are going to school where they learn in Ukrainian, with Ukrainian teachers. Some in churches, some other is existing schools if there is room. No books I imagine but at least it feel like a normal life. Have no idea how it happened so quickly.

 

Anyone have any clue how Putin shapes anarrative that he's liberating Ukraine from Nazi's when at the sight of him all the Ukrainian refugees ran to western countries?

 

I don't know what or if any peace agreement between Ukraine and Russia would look like. So far as I know we (NATO/US/free world) are not and should not be involved in that.

I am pretty sure though that any "ending" to this where Putin thinks he will keep Ukraine means he will get to keep his now-Soviet-era economy too. Putin thinks we will get bored and forget eventually, but I don't think that is going to happen this time around, we saw how that worked (not) last time. This time Russia is going to remain toxic for a long time to come.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754

 

The part where they ask Ukraine to de-nazify is hilarious. Zelenskyy has to pretend he's Ryan Gosling in The Believer. Complete insanity.

 

That's obvious I am not talking about discussion between reasonable people. have you talked to Mitt Romney?

 

Whatever comes out of this situation, the damage will be enormous.

Look back in time:
1853 - Crimean War
1917 - Russian Revolution overturns the old Tsar.
1921 - The Territory known as the land around Kiev is confronted with a choice: join Lenin & Co. or get it together and become a unified state.
1921 - Lenin & Co. incorporate the Kiev region and take control over the Black Sea region.
1921 to 1991 - The Soviet Union has control and Stalin did his thing.
1991 to now - Ukraine became its own unified state but Russia keeps meddling.

I do not trust Putin, the EU or the Nato or any media (Dutch, Western or other) in this context. All you can do is make a choice: support the Ukrainians and hope they win or expect Putin to get his way.

If Putin gets his way, terrible things are going to happen but moreover he will control more trade routes over the Eurasian continent a.k.a. the Silk Road. Control the trade routes, control the wealth of your neighbours: friends or foes.

The more you dig into the history of certain topics, the more you realise that old Europe is still in conflict with itself and its legacy. Old Europe and Tsarist Russia used to be awkward neighbours. They still are.

I hate that I realise all this and I am still almost powerless. I have bills to pay and arrangements to make for better days...

 

I also feel powerless. I learned about nuclear weapons 28 years ago and there hasn't been a day since I haven't looked up at the sky.

I pray that we have a miracle and make it through this.

 

The least one can do as a European is point people to the European External Action Service’s EUvsDisinfo platform:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/

Their fact-checking is pretty solid and deserves wider attention. Still too much regurgitating of Russian disinfo-shit out there.

 

I am old enough to remember drills in elementary school where we had to get under our desks (as if that would help). Often wonder how much of my fatalistic/nihilistic attitudes came from growing up in such a milieu.