The HD800 & HD800S thread

Are tubes really that much better than ss?

What is it about tubes that people say bring out the best in the HD800?

I like the crystal clarity of ss. I did use a tube amp once and found it smothered details and was syrupy.

 

That is a LOADED Question!

I see tubz as a variable - variable that can, with proper tweaking, be glorious.
And by proper tweaking I mean find the 'best' set of tubz to meet what you desire in terms of SQ.
And of course you gotta be willing to search for the correct set of tubz, which usually entails much research and buying of 'sets' of tubz to try…

SS on the other hand isn't tweakable to anywhere near this degree of variability.

But with proper tweaking it is possible to have SS approach the euphonic coloration that is so desirable with tubz.
And conversely it is possible to reduce the type and amount of euphonic coloration by choosing the proper set of tubz.
IOW it's possible to sort meet in the middle somewhere from either approach.

But it takes fussing, experience, patience, time and $$$$, to varying degrees, depending upon where you start and where you end up.

And there are some rather inexpensive hybrid designs that are astonishing, depending upon what your needs are…

JJ

 

You used a tube amp "once." Did it never occur to you that maybe not all tube amps are the same? Sure there are a bunch of crappy tubey sounding tube amps out there as there are a crapload of SS amps that sound like utter shit. But a tube amp done right is far from congested and syrupy and can sound just as crystal clear as any decent SS mp out there, sometimes even superior in that regard.

Rag is a very well-implemented SS amp no doubt, but IMO the ZDS is a overall better amp especially for high-impedance Senns. For the record, BW was the best SS amp I've heard to date and it destroys many tube amps that cost more. The ZDS is still slightly better than BW to my ears.

 

It's all sort of relative. I compared it from memory to the Sansui and HDVA600 and directly to EC2A3 and uber modded Ehha. The latter two being among 3 best amplifiers I have tried.
Vali 1 for the money is not under performer, far from it. I still think one better skip HD800 if they are set on Vali 1, it's level 3 amp matched with level 20 headphone.

I was once on the lookout for amplifier that would make HD800 sound like everyone back then (few years back) raved about.
To me HD800 then sounded like echoing empty bowl had very capable transducer attached to it, sideways.
Just sterile, often nasty in treble, no weight in vocals, bass was anemic, depth of sound-stage was completely missing. In retrospect my amp and dac at the time were 99% guilty of these crappy attributes. I then climbed the dirty road up trying all sorts of ss things to eventually still end up with what everybody had who praised the HD800 so highly, so triode amp from EC .
Before good tube amps I had tried Leben XS300, Woo WA22 which pretty closely sound what you think about tube amplifiers. Then I heard Apex Pinnacle which was a revelation. It was head and shoulders above Leben and Woo. But even Pinnacle was handily beaten by modded Ehha and even more so the EC2A3.

The EC 2A3 that I have gives absolutely nothing to any solid state amp I have tried. Clarity, slam, tone richness, sense of continuity and sound-stage, smoothness (no ss haze) are so far best I have heard. It's even the most neutral amplifier I know. I'm not hesitating to use it as preamp for my powered monitors as it is almost transparent.
Only DNA Stratus is hanging with it up there for me, but I still like the EC slightly better. Sadly haven't got the chance to try other EC offerings, esp the Studio to which I have total faith will be even better.

So yeah, imo in high tier tubes are just better. At least up until 6 W of power or so.

 

To be fair, listening to any ss amp, one gets a pretty good idea of the ss sound and they generally know what to expect in future ss amp purchases. The reason people buy ss amps is they like the sound signature. So having only heard one tube amp, naturally I thought it was a good representation of the tube sound. Of couse, I wasnt totally correct but it shouldn't be hard to understand why I came to that conclusion.

That said, I am intruiged by the idea of tube amps, and am looking into the Vali 2 as a low cost entry.

Does anyone have any experience with the Vali 2? And is the Valhalla 2 much better?

 

Do some searching in the top right corner and you'll find a lot of info on those two. Bottom line is yes, both are well received with HD800 and might be worth your time.

 

Thanks. Sorry to derail.

 

No worries at all, we're still on topic. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of the other threads that might already have a lot of the info you need. Feel free to ask in this thread as well.

 

To be fair, EC23A, Studio, Apex Teton, Stratus are all ~$5,000 priced amps. It would be easy for them to outperform $1,200-$1,800 priced SS amps.

Has anyone listened to any $5k to $10k SS amp? I only know of power amps that cost that much. Headtrip GSXmkII is the highest non-elecrostatic headphone amp I can think of & that's under 3 grand.

 

The other thing about ss is what the hell would even cost in it?
Silicon is c h e a p. Something like Rag has almost all imaginable bells and whistles in it, and costs accordingly.
I have hard time understanding why would solid state hp amp cost more than 2k$. Then again I'm a cheap DIY bastard who has little regard to aesthetics, so there's that.

Transformers in signal path, most tubes, caps in signal path are expensive.
I almost went to the road of building my own SET. Then I calculated the parts cost. It was roughly the same as used EC2A3.

 

Finally got the HD800 on my head again.

This is a bone stock loaner from Lumoid. S/N is in the 22ks.

And the verdict... dayum these are nice! Midrange tone is spot on and gloriously clear. Bass drops off a little compared to a planar but remains almost equally as tight and textured. I've never had an open dynamic do bass and midrange so well, very very nice. Treble is prominent but not annoyingly so and shockingly clean. I'm noticing a very small amount of energy buildup at 6kHz -- definitely not anything deal-breaking and sometimes actually quite difficult to notice. However, I conditioned myself to a lot of different FRs over the years, including the HD700, so some people might be more sensitive to this than me.

Here's some quick plots:

FR:



Spectro:



IR:



A bit of imbalance in the bass on the FR, and it is indeed audible. Not something you like to see at a price point like this but this is a loaner so I'm not going to read too far into this and I would suggest the same of others, especially with how good the rest of the matching is. Spectro shows a bit of excess energy from the fundamental at 5-6kHz and a quite broad, but short lived blip at about 3.5ms. Intriguing behavior, this is very specific ringing and the rest of the plot is ridiculously clean. IR shows a bit of ringing but an otherwise very clean, tidy impulse.

Quick comparo with my Sansui SS-100 (current reference headphone):



A bit less presence at 1-3kHz and a bit more beyond that. The Sansui does have a bit extra energy at 1-2kHz so this is mostly a good thing. The suckout at 4kHz is a bit more violent and less than ideal, but still not super bad in this regard and I know a lot of people who would prefer this. The drivers's resonant frequency appears to be in the bass, at around 100Hz and drops off below that, while the Sansui doesn't seem to have a primary resonance (and shouldn't since its a planar). However, rolloff on the HD800 is minimal; only down by by about 3dB from the primary resonance at 20Hz. For an open dynamic, this is INSANELY impressive!

These aren't mine, so I can't mod them, but it's pretty much decided at this point that I'll be adding these to my stable and can provide modded plots once I get it. Really nice experience.

Shout outs to the great people at Lumoid.com for their service!

 

Dude, soo two thousand and twel.....

Good to see some more measurements.

 

How does your Sansui soundstage & imaging compare to the HD800?

 

Imaging is similar, HD800 might be just a tiny bit more diffuse but there is more information (resolution) present so it kinda balances the two out. Soundstage on HD800 is decidedly more 3D, predictably.

 

Hello folks, please let me know if you're interested.

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/fs-hd800-earpads-group-buy.2507/#post-66707

 

I have a pair of 800 S ...run them with an Oppo HA 1 which has plenty of power for them. I think their Class A amp works great with 'em. Even have enough poop for my my 20 foot cable...I know no here believe in break-in...but I think they sound much better after about 175 hours than they did out of the box. Out of the box they did not sound much different/better than my 650's...my 2 cents...

 

Just got a pair of used stock HD800 at a great price, S/N in the 49ks .. I listen to mostly mainstream pop/ rock music and the sibilance and brightness kills my ears.

What is a good software solution to try while waiting for my SDR to arrive? Never felt the need to EQ my headphones but the HD800 stock are impossible to love otherwise..

 

Sorry but did you buy the HD800 without auditioning it in its stock form first? Physical modding indeed helps (can't help with software EQ sorry, no experience on that) and will tame most of its inherent spike but will not change the HD800 into something else. It will still be a HD800, a cruel mistress that will punish you for playing a bad quality recording or through a bad quality setup.