4 New Schiit Preamps (Saga and Freya variants)

Discussion in 'Preamps' started by rlow, May 28, 2019.

  1. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Like Freya S, if one comes up b-stock or used, I’ll give it a shot, but I’m becoming frustrated with finding good tubes that don’t cost a fortune, so thinking of getting out of the tube preamp game. Unless Freya + can somehow elevate new production tubes to the level of some of the great NOS tubes, it probably won’t give me what I’m looking for.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  2. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  3. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    I wanted to try this, and Dave seemed amenable to a loaner for a bit, but then went dark. At $1,250 for a balanced 24-step (and about 20 bills for a 48-step), it's on the high end for passives. The Goldpoint and a remote kit for it set me back about $400 so you can understand my reticence.

    I don't have much need for the single ended one, or the equation would be a lot different. I'll reach out to Dave again.
     
  4. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Dave seems to get distracted but totally easy to work with. He just sent me another SUT. I had one demo from him for 3 months. I think he'd forgotten about it, and I finally asked when he wanted it back.
     
  5. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    I'll post my review of the Freya+ from the loaner.

    I used the stock tubes & also with 4 Tung-Sol black glass, round plate 6SN7 tubes.
    The stock tubes sound rounder, warmer & have a little bit of a veil to the midrange, but otherwise the sound was close with the black glass tubes. After I switched to them, they didn't embarrass the stock tubes.
    The pre-amp is 100% dead silent, I heard zero noise with any of the gains through my HD800.

    Passive mode notably lacked the dynamics & dimensionality. It didn't have as hard hitting bass, seemed not as wide & it lacked weight to the sound, but I felt it has the cleanest non-veiled sound. For low to medium volume listening levels, this would be perfectly fine & I could easily choose it over using 1x or 4x gain.

    Gains 1 & 4 both sounded similar, which gain 4x being more powerful & I used it for the duration of my tests.
    With the 4x gain & the black glass tubes, the sound was crystal clear, non-veiled sound. Good impact & sharp transients.
    It has a signature of of being very wide & open, dynamic. I heard no softness or muddiness to anything. Instruments have weight to them. The open wide sound & big dynamics are the most noticeable thing when first hearing them. The vocals to me seemed the cleanest I've heard, I was very impressed by that.
    I would say the preamp is midranged focused.

    A few criticisms I had was that it could stand to be a bit more taut & tighter sounding, as I feel the preamp had a slight etheral sound quality to it. Some loud & complex passages also do kinda blend in together at louder volumes.
    With the black glass tubes, it also added some brightness & some very light fatigue over the sock tubes.

    The only other preamps I used were the Schiit Sys (ultra clean sounding, but again seriously lacking in weight, dynamics, bass & staging), Vali2 (just awful) & Emotiva DC-1 (sounds o.k., but unremarkable otherwise).

    If there is one thing I came away with this, is active preamps (especially with tubes) are the way to go.
     
  6. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Really nice review, cheers! Any experience/notes with OG Freya to compare against?
     
  7. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    No real experience with any other serious preamps.

    Every time I search, the semi decent ones, that are't even on par with the Freya+ spec wise, are priced at $2-3,000.
    The average active preamp seem to go for a higher price than the similarly quality-wise power amps.
     
  8. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Friend

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    Tonight I reached a bit of a breaking point with Freya S. I originally bought it to integrate mono Aegirs into my system. Aegirs plus my Dynaudios, for my music and listening preferences, didn't work out but I kept Freya S. Something, and I can't quite put my finger on exactly what, but something has been bothering me with my system the last few days. I did get a new CD transport but I just couldn't quite determine that it was the source of the issue. To put it succinctly, I just wasn't all that excited or involved with what I was playing lately.

    So I decided - tired and ready to go to bed - let's put the OG Saga back in the chain. This required putting my 1:1 XLR/SE Jensen transformer back in the chain as well. And within a few songs it was obvious that I preferred the Saga. I still can't really describe why, I just know that I'm happier with how everything sounds over the Freya S. I tried both Nexus modes as well as passive mode. I guess I could say it's just not as dynamic in my system as Saga OG is but that seems too convenient. Nevertheless, I've requested an RMA for Freya S. I'm right around the 15-day cutoff, so we'll see if they let me send it back. Regardless, I'm finding that OG Saga in active mode with a very good tube (Ken Rad black) just tickles the right nerves in the right places for me.
     
  9. Cary

    Cary New

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    Interestingly, you say that 1x and 4x sound similar, but didn't note that Gain 1 is the JFET mode, while gain 5 is the tube mode. I would expect them to sound different, especially with the tube rolling.
     
  10. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Well similar in that they sound more closer together than what passive sounds. Don't know if it was the difference in the JFET/tube mode or the higher gain that contributed to the more powerful sound?
     
  11. Cary

    Cary New

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    That is the hard part when levels don't match. I notice that in both my OG Saga and Freya S they sound significantly less dynamic in passive mode than active, even when overcompensating for the volume difference. I know that passives can be extremely transparent (my Adcom GFP-750 was in passive mode), but both Schiit units don't have that quality (and I am using a Modi Multibit with the Saga and Gungnir with balanced for the Freya S, so I would expect they would drive the passive properly). Both are very transparent in active mode.
     
  12. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I find most amps, headphone or preamps, to sound better on high gain at the same dB. Why I really don't understand but more often than not it just does. More engaging, heftier bass, more dynamic...maybe some percentages of plankton are lost but I can't tell. Happened with Freya, Mjo2 and Jot. Maybe a Schiit trait now that I think about it haha

    Yeah I'm definitely feeling frustrated in that regard. As I look to what I will replace OG Freya with, the truly good options are minimal and use either 6SN7 (fornatuely for me) or 6922 et al. which have also skyrocketed in price.

    Did the tubes with mercury, probably lead and a sprinkle of cyanid and radiation give the old tubes their magic?! Make Tubes Great Again :D
     
  13. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    Yes, though my own ears seem to tell me that this can sometimes come at the cost of a very small amount of staging (which might impact perception of plankton as you mentioned). Things feel more dynamic but also slightly more congested.

    Maybe my ears are lying to me, but that's how I'm currently perceiving it. I seem to be more sensitive to this than most so it's likely a non-issue for many.
     
  14. Cary

    Cary New

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    So some interesting observations on the different modes and gain between the OG Saga and Freya S. I decided to pull out my SPL meter to check listening levels on my Saga for my desktop system, so I could note what volume positions net me 75db peak and 85db peak (using pink noise). As I will often be at my desk for hours at a time, I like to make sure I keep the volume below 75db peak. Keeping in mind I did this with a handheld SPL app on an Iphone X, so it may not be as accurate as if I ran it with room eq and the calibrated mic.

    On the Saga OG there is about a 2 db gain between passive an active, 2 clicks on the volume gets you within .5 db.

    The surprise was the Freya S (running from a Gungnir Multibit with balanced to a Sunfire amp with balanced). From passive to Gain 1, the Freya S jumps 7 db. From Gain 1 to Gain 4, it jumps another 13 db, or a total of 20db over passive. This is way above the rated 12db.

    I then gave a listen to both amps in passive vs active modes having calibrated the volume positions for each to get equivalent sound levels (well within .5-1db). Properly matched with an SPL meter, rather than by ear for levels, the passive and active modes on both are far closer sounding than my prior observations. With the passive, it sounds just a bit more laid back, a bit easier sounding, a bit less dynamic. When I say a bit, I mean a bit. That said, level matched, the passive is growing on me. (I am really sensitive to glare, I have tennitus that I have suffered since a child from a loud explosion which is currently being exasperated by a German shepherd puppy that feels the need to periodically bark inside).

    So an important reminder to all of us, with a cheap app it is worth checking to compare sound levels to make sure they are in fact close and differences being heard are not just overall loudness.
     
  15. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Thanks for pointing that out. Most folks would hopefully know that in order to compare anything, you need to level match, especially with a 7dB SPL difference, I would hope that would be fairly obvious.

    Also just to note- the dB gain quoted in the preamp specs is not the same as the dB increase in SPL you will hear from your listening position. Those are 2 different things and would need to be calculated based on your setup. But 20 dB SPL increase over passive is still obviously a lot.
     
  16. Cary

    Cary New

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    For me it was a reminder that while we may try level matching by ear, it may not always be as well matched as we think (and our ears not as perfect as level matching as we like to believe). With the availability of low costs apps for db meters, it is a simple, fast task to do a level match. As I am sure most here are well aware, it is well document that levels as small as .5db difference will result in a strong preference towards the slightly, but not necessarily audibly so, louder of the two. I think even the most strident subjective would agree that proper level matching is essential to accurately compare components.

    In my case it resulted in providing less than correct feedback about the preamps due to my failure to properly match. I should know better after 30 years, but yet still fell into the trap of overestimating myself.
     
  17. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    Saga+ and Freya S are available in black finish as well in case any one was waiting for this finish.
     
  18. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    @schiit Any chance there may be a black Freya+?
     
  19. Wilhelm E Vormer

    Wilhelm E Vormer New

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    Was wondering about that too. A black Freya + would be stunning

    But wd the finish get damaged by transformer heat?
     
  20. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    Exit stage left....
    hm. so this Freya+ thing is for 2ch and amps eh?
    well, I went a different weird route- using the Freya + as a pre-amp to the DSHA-3F amp.
    why? why not.

    received the SBAF Freya+ loaner a few days back, and let it settle.

    chain: Audirvana (Mac mini) --> YggyA2 (unison usb) --> Freya + (4 Tung Sol tubes) --> DSHA-3F --> Auteur Blackwood --> older ears.

    TL;DR: the Freya+ tube effects on the 3F are minor.
    didn't bother to nit pick on the passive or buffer gain after not hearing anything noticeable there either.

    some slight sonic alterations noticed were:
    stage width the slightest bit wider. instruments still near and in the ear cup, instead of sitting right at ear edge.
    bass had a bit of leading edge softened. but no bloom or big rounded change.
    vocals presented the same as 3F, somewhat close usually in a center area of stage.

    am sure Purr1n's spider chart for this pre is accurate and discernible in 2ch space, but for me was a real struggle to discern any major effects.
    suppose that can be quantified as "a good pre"? since no clarity, tonality, or other 3F traits were destroyed.
    or the tubes were very clean and even keeled. (no patience for tube rolling at this time)
    I expected increases in stage, air, placement, floating decays, etc. but didn't happen.

    in previous weeks when using the EC Aficionado as a pre to the 3F, the Af added some bass bloom (no feedback mod) or increased depth and layering (feedback mod) when feeding the 3F. Freya+ tubes delivered no such spatial wizardry.

    in summary: maybe the 3F just "is what it is" when fed by Freya+,
    or Auteur Blackwood are what they are with the SS amp, or ears are just not up to the task for uber hair splitting being noticeable in this config.
    no harm no foul.
     

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