Am I too spoiled by headphones to enjoy speakers? Answer is NO!

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Dukja, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    I have been very happy with my two headphone systems: HE-6 driven by Aleph 3 and HD800 by AGD Phoenix. Both systems give me consistent tonality, rich sound, tight and well defined bass. HE-6 has much larger dynamic range with good resolution and I enjoy large scale symphony and soundtrack with it. HD800 has better resolution and finer detail and texture.

    Recently, I venture into speaker world and got Ascend Acoustic Sierra-1 for audition. I have tried my low-end Rotel RA-970BX and Pioneer SX-950 (totally recapped) on it on a stand at a small (12x10 room, not much wall treatment with one window at left side, hardwood floor with area rug, fabric sofa, basically a TV room). While I appreciate its good stage but the imaging wasn't an eye opener for me. I was most disappointing by the tonality. I feel like the sound has been distorted by either cabin, the stand (not filled with sand), or the room. I totally lost the realistic feeling of instrument texture and tonality. It sounds very "fake" to me. :eek:

    I have tried in two nights with different distance to wall and putting some weight on top of speaker, but nothing works. Strangely, when I visit a BestBuy in the City, I quite enjoyed their Martin Logan Motion 15 and B&W CM2 S2. From some reading, Sierra 1 should be a good performer, but I didn't get it. So I would appreciate some help here. Do I need to
    * use better amp (use my Phoenix + Aleph 3 )?
    * move to larger room?
    * more burn in?
    * or I just need to spend 10x to match the tonality and texture of my headphone system?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  2. Feuergeist76

    Feuergeist76 New

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    If speaker systems are not shining and they are supposed to do so, this can have various reasons:

    - You need to spend the same carefulness on the whole chain like with headphones; this means proper source, amplification and cabling
    - You need to consider the room acoustics play a major role in how the system sounds: orientation and place of the speakers, the acoustic properties of the room (damping, natural frequencies, geometry, ...)

    First of all you can experiment a bit with the speaker arrangement and orientation - change the place in the room, orientate the speakers to your listening position, and so forth.

    I then would further check if your speakers are really on par with what you expect - check them in a studio/shop with other amplification for example. You could also try to get a loaner for your system at home to evaluate the difference.

    All of that you could do without spending money.

    Cheers

    Feuergeist

    Just a comment: a pair of commercially available speakers for around $900 are comparable maybe to headphones in the $100 price segment - so that's far from high end.
     
  3. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    Thanks for the hints. I'll definitely try to replace the amp with Phoenix + Aleph3 (maybe ok for small room). Otherwise, my system is similar to my HD800: PC => AGC DI => DAC19 (10yr ver) all through Blue Jean's cable (digital, line level, and speaker cable).

    And I'll try up upstairs with carpet to see if there is a change. The tonal distortion (sound like voice came from a box) may be due to room issue since I switched from Rotel to Pioneer and nothing change.

    The sound texture and details probably hard to beat the headphone. The last point is what I am afraid of. Maybe I am so sued to expect the intimacy of sound texture so that the speakers at this level arel not good enough for my expectation. However, when I audited at BB with Martin Logan and B&W, they sounds fantastic, and I expect nothing less from this Sierra-1. :(
     
  4. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    After several nights of trials on different amps and adjusting positions of the speakers. It seems to me the separation of the speaker caused the tonality to be off. When the separation of the Sierra-1 was about 5 feet, the soundstage was withdrawn back into the wall and sound seems to "coming out of a box". After I stretch the separation further, the sound was "opened" up and spread more like flat field (in optics terms) with depth.

    I have tried Aleph3 (30W @ 8ohm, 60W @ 4ohm), Rotel RA-970BX, and Pioneer receiver SX-950 and find interesting things. I am still not 100% happy with the sound and called Dave at Ascend Acoustic to chat for about 30 min on my issue. Our conclusion was that "after listening to high-end headphone system for so long that my ears are trained to search for all those high frequency details that are probably lost significantly in the speaker world unless the room is well treated". So he suggested me to upgrade with NrT or even Sierra-2. I am afraid that I may need to end up with Sierra-2 since I really like those ribbon tweeter from the experience with Martin Logan Motion 15.

    I have to say that Sierra-1 may be a highly transparent speaker since I can clearly tell the difference from all the amps (even my lowly Onkyo HT receiver in the room). Aleph3 is most truthful, smooth, and elegant with some texture (alas, 30W seems to run out of steam for inefficient Sierra1). Rotel pumped up much better in the fullness of sound and low end due to its higher wattage, but the fine texture is gone (a little bit "rude and rough"). Pioneer has highest wattage at the bass is full of power, but the high has some glare and edges. Onkyo has easy listening sound but it is more like ambient music, the focus is loose.

    I was surprised that Dave claimed that amp does not change Sierra-1's sound much, which is totally different from my experience. I guess that we are talking at different level of change. My feeling is that I'll need a amp at Aleph's level but higher wattage, which will not be cheap. Or I have to try another one (maybe with a ribbon tweeter) with hope...:headbang:

    During these exercise, now I mate my HD800 with Ref-7 and Phoenix with balanced connection. I am very very impressed with the sound. Extremely harmonized sound, right tonality, excellent texture, right volume (not too lean or bloomy), right amount of bass and impact, large dynamic range and wide stage. Nothing more to ask me for now. :sail:
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  5. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    Dukja I just switched from headphones to speakers in my 2 channel setup too. Except I had lower end stuff, HE560 etc. I almost ordered sierra 2 b stock when it was on sale for black friday but I ended up getting the new 2-way raal Philharmonitor which is a similar class of quality. I also was considering kef ls50. I just set up the speakers 2 days ago and I'm very happy with them and don't feel like I'm missing any treble detail vs my he560. You might want to try a more powerful amp, 30 watts seems a little low even if they're class A.
     
  6. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    Thanks for the encouragement. Philharmonitor is very nice looking speaker and I trust that it would be a wonderful setup. Thanks to your thread I have read a little at other forum about the comparison to Sierra-2. Unfortunately, it was at a Sierra-2 thread and all the discussion of Philhamonica seems to fade. I would like to hear your impression.

    And for me I have not switch to any one yet. :) I just found both world were so nice and they have their own strength.:)
     
  7. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    OK, I changed the thread title and answered my own question. After another night, now I get quite familiar with Sierra-1's sound. And I have been paying extra attention to the tonality when I was immersed in HD800's sound in my office during day time. Then I realized that there must be a spike in my room's freq response. That spike at mid-high freq was like a knife scratching on the glass surface. (Sure I exaggerate a little bit) It was so annoying that I cannot listen to it for more than a few minutes. The tonality is certainly off due to this spike.

    That was the last straw. I moved all my gear upstairs to my much larger study room (roughly 20' x30') with carpet. With such luxurious room, I just lay the system in the middle of the room to try it out.

    And that was the moment like heaven opening up for me. The mid-high freq spike is gone and the sound became sweet and smooth. All my familiar sweet music from my headphone experience now comes back to this speaker setup. More astonishing to me was the sound stage. Since there was about 6' between the speaker and the back wall, now the speaker totally disappear. Every sound now is projected from the 3D stage behind the speaker. This is the 1st time I feel such realistic 3D soundstage. I am not sure my speaker positioning to the room is optimized, nor if such sound stage is "normal", but I am sold to it immediately.

    My Rotel ra-970BX pushed them beautifully. No matter what music I threw at it, Bizet's Carmen Suites, Bach's 2&3 Piano Concerto, Brendel's Beethoven Sonata, Tron Legacy soundtrack,... everything sounds great. I have never heard such nice tone and stage. Maybe this is new toy syndrome, but I am so impressed that I am going to change my study layout for this Sierra-1.

    And they are staying now. :sail:
     
  8. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    After a weekend of playing with Sierra-1 and when I fall back to HE-6 powered by Aleph3. I have to say.... Headphone is much more satisfying to me. :drunk:

    Although I got very nice imaging and soundstage and nice tonality, but headphone give me all the intimacy and WARMTH. which I found missing. I am not talking about the warmth of the sound, but the feeling of that I am so close to the heart of music and emotion that I feel its impact and soothing effect at the same timem

    When I listen to any symphonic work, the initial response was great! But I was never drawn into the music and eventually I was tired of listening to it. When I listen to soundtrack, those pinnacle and dramatic moment were not surprising no more and I was not beating my thigh following the drum work.

    I guess that when I listen with a headphone all the goodness is concentrated and distilled into me. The texture, frequency response, and quality of each tone conduct more emotion than those by the spatial information in the soundstage. And headphone captures them all except the spatial information.

    Although I like the freedom of moving around with the speaker system, but now I lost accurate soundstage and it degrades to casual listening with much less requirement. I may get by with other cheaper speaker with sweeter tone in that case.

    At last I swap in my old Monitor Audio BR2, and realize the major difference between them. Sierra has much refined and accurate high/mid, but which also makes it easy to be plagued by room reflection and cause fatigue. From reading, I thought the tweeter of Sierra-1 should be smooth and soft sounding (and hence NrT upgrade). Maybe my rooms were just so lack of hanging panting on the wall of something. :rolleyes:

    Another interesting comparison Sierra-1 reminds me my initial impression with HD800, very accurate and detailed but needs some meat and soul. However, my current HD800 system does moved more toward to be like my HE-6 sound with more WARMTH that I desired. :piratemug:
     
  9. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    Interesting. Yes, headphones are definitely a different experience than speakers. You should audition more speakers if you have a dealer near you. I should take my own advice and try that too. But I think I"m pretty settled down with my current new phil setup for a while.
     
  10. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    Does that mean you have to change your answer, in the thread title, to yes?
     
  11. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    No, even Sierra-1 is a good speaker to allow headphone guys like me to enjoy it. That was the original question.

    However, there are extra costs and limitations imposed by speaker setup that may not be ideal for me.
    First, I believed that with proper room treatment Sierra-1 will sounds great, but I don't have the time and energy atm to pursue it.
    And I realized that I usually listen and work at the same time for almost 99% of my listening session. (cannot just sit there enjoy music with my brain being idle. :p and a table between me and speakers seems to cause more early reflection issue) . And I subconsciously pay so much attention to all the details in the music (so familiar with them). Any missing freq component due to head turning will destroy my enjoyment. So speaker actually post even more limitation than headphone to me.

    I still have some time left for Sierra-1 and I am curious about Phiharmonitor (even BMR). I am pondering if I need to get a pair for audition and compare. My small room may need something smaller and sweeter, and BMR may be good for my study.
     
  12. NoStream

    NoStream Acquaintance

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    Speakers are pretty tough. I had to do room treatments (traps behind listener plus corners) and EQ to get what I thought was a good sound. (And I've forced myself to stop analyzing it too closely because doing so makes me want to do more treatments that I don't have space for.) Otherwise, room modes caused boomy bass and reflections caused image smearing. Now I'm happy with the sound, but there's always going to be a loss of detail vs. good headphones.

    I think speakers will always have compromises versus headphones unless you spend nearly 10x as much and have a dedicated and fully-treated room for listening. When I listen to many speaker setups, all I hear is room interactions. (Of course, speaker listeners notice the tiny soundstage on headphones.) You're lucky that you have a large room where you can separate the speakers and listener from the wall.
     
  13. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    Thanks for the sharing! We don't have nice hi-fi store here but lots of land, so space is all we have. :p

    I think it was crazy when I put the speaker in the middle of the room with about good 6-8 foot empty space behind. But that is where I got best soundstage and speaker-disappearing experience. As soon as I put speaker close to the wall, the stage is squashed. I swapped my lowly Monitor Audio BR2 in and the stages size remained only less focused.

    Another issue of my current Sierra setup is that the sound caused fatigue easier at large dynamic range, and yet still the dynamic moment didn't induce the same emotional impact. Is it because loss of intimacy?
     
  14. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    It is almost like a blog now... \/

    I finally got a pair of Martin Logan LX16 (which is basically Motion 15) just because I really want to find out what is "wrong" with this pair of Sierra-1, or maybe my room. After hooking LX16 up and warming it up for about an hour. I was so much enjoy its high and mid. It is not sparkling at all but it sounds so natural and "right". I have no problem falling asleep on listening this pair, not because it is boring but it is so soothing and "standing behind the scene". It may not be a perfect pair for critical listening, but it is a dream pair for causal and ambient listening.

    The bass may not be full blown but I am surprising it is not too shabby either.

    Now I'll get to listening more and compare with Sierra...:drunk:
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  15. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    Next you'll have to experiment with a subwoofer :p
     
  16. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    Yes, that is what I am afraid of... Or maybe a Philhamonitor BMR|\/| I am very interested what the combination of a ribbon tweeter and a good woofer will do to me.:p

    I have spent the night with two speakers and was so amazed that the sound can be so much different. The high and mid of LX16 sound so amazing to me that it reminds me a lot of my headphone system in tonality (Vangelis' Oceanic). The tonality of LX16 is so similar to my headphone systems (DT800, T1, etc) that I felt home immediately. Just so "comfortable" to listen but it does not provide HD800 type of focusing.

    On the other hand, when I swapped Sierra-1 on the stand. I have to show my respect to it. It definitely has HD800-type of details and soundstage (actually much better stage). However, it always bother me that there is some frequency component at mid-low range gone missing (maybe only in my room, and yet LX16 sounds so right). This alienated its sound to me somehow.

    Now I faces a difficult decision. This almost means that I need to get something like Sierra-2 or Philhamonitor BMR, a sweet ribbon tweeter with good bass...|\/|. Must resist.

    The conventional wisdom (from reading) seems to suggest finding a good sub-woofer may be more troublesome and expensive than finding a good 2-ch system??
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
  17. haywood

    haywood Friend

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    Good bookshelf speakers can punch above their cost in imaging and detail but don't provide the impact or immersion of floorstanders that can better reproduce the full spectrum of sound.

    The Sierra-1 isn't a big speaker which doesn't help but the NRT tweeter which you mentioned is regarded as pretty bright which some (like me) find fatiguing, but I prefer a warm / dark sounding speaker and silk domes to metal so YMMV. The Sierra-2 addresses both of those things with a larger mid-woofer and a very well regarded ribbon tweeter (though for about the same price the BMRP seems like a better all-around speaker).

    Like with headphones better amps usually mean more than just the dB you can obtain, if you didn't get the NRT version then some of the fatigue you're experiencing at higher volumes could be because your amp can't keep up with the demands of the speaker at that volume. This would be especially true with more dynamic music like classical.
     
  18. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    Thanks a lot for the sharing. With some recent experience, I also suspect that my Rotel at cold start and cold room may sound much harsher, (much more than my headphone gears). I do have only limited speaker amp experience. That was why I call Dave at Ascend Acoustic. But he didn't think amp is an issue at all. :) Now I am much happier with Sierra's high after warming up all the gears. Still, the missing of some frequency band is puzzled me. For example, the unique texture of Steinway piano at bass clef is less convincing. And the voice of Marry Black is less creamy...in comparison to LX16.

    You mentioned the interesting idea about the difference of bookshelf and floorstand. I have not experienced that yet. Thanks for the food for thought.
     
  19. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    BMR monitors are only great down to 35Hz. Dennis claims usable to 30Hz, but I find it perfect down to around 35 which works well for most of my music. I don't turn on the sub in 99% of cases.

    I also strongly prefer the Phils to the Sierra line. I've auditioned the Sierra 1 + RAAL upgrade and the Sierra 2s and Dennis' speakers are a significant upgrade.
     
  20. Dukja

    Dukja New

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    Wow! That is a strong testimony and what I was looking for. I have suspected BMR may fit the bill for me. Your post really tempted me to get a pair for audition.

    I trust the tweeter will be sweet and airy without any hint of edges. And your word shows the quality of bass (35Hz should put a good smile on my face). How about the mid range. Is it slightly lush while being kind of neutral?

    Thanks for your sharing.
     

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