Audio Science Review Review

Exactly this. And even if it did not sound like butt, why are they recommending it when it sounds exactly the same like the $99 DAC? If they had integrity, they would say something along the lines of: "This $800 DAC performs marginally better in measurements than the $99 one, but unless you absolutely need the extra features, stick with the cheap one as they sound exactly the same."

Head-Fi, at least in my opinion, does not seem to be as messiah-focused and centralized and does not pretend to be on a special mission to free unsuspecting audiophiles from worldwide subjectivist conspiracy.

 

Random thought: Is ASR purposely doubling down on the crazy now to make sure that only the more gullible or fervent buy in now? For example, tech support phone scammers deliberately target the elderly and the Nigerian Prince scam emails eventually went over the top to weed out the 99%+ who aren’t going to go along for the ride.

Previously, it seemed like ASR was doing this “save your money audio messiah” thing to make some money or whatever with a few brands - sure. Either that or if I give them a lot of benefit of doubt, maybe some people really do perceive and hear music that way via different psycho acoustics and all and what ASR sold really did work for them. If that’s the case, great - I wish my entire setup could sound just as good for $200 too... However, some of the stuff he’s doing at this point like plugging headphones into the DAC and then complaining it doesn’t work as expected....

If this is the case, is it just time to ignore them as a whole now?

 

HF is way way better place than ASR.
Yes there a lot of deafs on HF who enjoy collecting gear regardless of how it sounds but you can also find the hardcore psychos that care for sound and only sound.

You have to lurk a lot and buy a lof of gear to compare your impressions to other's to know those relatable ears. True for SBAF too or any other online platform but it's especially true for HF because the forum is not welcoming at all for negative impressions, you can trigger a lot of insecurities by one word there...

ASR on the other hand, aside form the useful measurement graphs (hopefully not crooked) and some good sciencey discussions, is just a big pile of shit!. Aside from the mentioned above there is nothing useful there when it comes down to purchasing decision for a product you're interested in, not even comparable to HF if you know how to filter out the BS shills.

 

Why must it be an APx555? Is that the only analyzer that will produce results acceptable to readers? There is one of the problems I have with that site. Acquiring an expensive instrument and then ceaselessly hammering on how expensive it is while intimating there is only one source of "quality data" and that is this particular analyzer and operator. Which is what the faithful have been brought to believe. There are many analyzers capable of measuring discriminating differences between 99% of the audio components being tested. And all of them, including the APx555 are capable of producing seriously flawed data if the operator is incompetent or insidious.

There in lies the rub; hopefully not crooked. Inconsistent methods, selective presentation (or withholding) of data, lack of standards, etc. Three years ago today I posted this:
Tutorial - Lies, Damn Lies and USB DAC technical measurements
It is every bit as applicable today as it was then.

 

My only issue with ASR is when manufacturers end up designing gear just to please them. Otherwise, who cares? If the lazy want to be spoon-fed whatever some dude decided instead of doing research and educating themselves, so be it.

 

By that logic, it's okay if Harvard teaches their students the Earth is flat. I see your point, I just disagree. That's probably why I hate all social media platforms as well.

 

Oh I agree Amir's impact on the hobby as a whole is greater and far more damaging than Zs, but of the sin of getting people to buy overpriced shit they dont need I find them both GUILTY .

As I said before I think telling people they cant possible hear a difference between amps etc and not bothering to even try a blind test because the result has already been decided is quite damaging to audience science. It is simply not going to be possible for someone who actually actively believes they cant tell a difference between amps to be able to tell a difference in a blind test, they are already fully placeboed. Ironically Amir is quite anti-science in his approach/

I on the other hand am sick and tired of peoples proporting themselves to be experts giving misleading advice and being given a pass because their audience "should have known better!" Sure when someone is tricked or misled they have some measure of responsibility for not "knowing better" but the person doing the misleading is damn sure responsible as well. Even more so when they are presenting themselves as experts. THis is a golden age for con artists/grifters/grafters and the like, as the internet has made it easy for anyone to present themselves as grand master black belt experts on any topic. They should not be given a free pass for taking advantage of peoples trust. There is a measure of responsibility that comes with offering "expert advice" and its really infuriating to see it hand waved away.

For the record I am not saying Amir or Z are con artists! I think Z reviews is honest in his opinions, I simply wish he would add a disclaimer to his videos that explain his review style and how he considers every product on its own merit not factoring in price/competing products that would help his audience modulate their expectations and better process what he saying.

I think Amir is very likely an OVER-confidence man rather than a confidence man . Hearing him speak in some of these videos, he seems to believe most the things he says, he has just convinced himself that he cannot possibly be wrong. Its entirely possible he isnt even aware of his own biases or conflicts of interests because he truly believes himself to have ascended past them. He has achieved a state of true nirvana and ascended to his final form the ALPHA OBJECTIVIST!!!!!

Here shortly he shall don the crown of the ALPHA OBJECTIVIST a perfectly circular crown crafted out of Objective 2 amplifier cases forged in the fires created by exploding Topping L30s that fits precisely upon his head with not a millimeter of wasted material. Perfectly measured, objectively the most prestigious fashion one could wear!

 

The consequences of the Earth being flat and listening to music are orders of magnitude different though. And that's in a way part of the reasoning for my post. We're ultimately talking about listening to music. How someone listens to their music has zero consequence on anyone or anything else. Most of us are obsessive to some degree about this (audio) subject but perhaps we're taking it too far by worrying about #QAmir.

 

This is in part true - music and its paraphernalia is not the same kind of "truth" as orbital mechanics. The problem is that this is exactly the argument used by the ORFAS radical subjectivist crowd when they justify a market that is far too susceptible to snake oil and confidence men.

I appreciated @Rthomas alternative take, because if given a Sophia's either/or choice between Hi-Fi and ASR, I would probably choose ASR as it would tickle my inner objectivist leanings.

Reality is we don't have to choose either - we can have the middle way that transcends both because it is about finding the truth between and beyond the subjectivist/objectivist exaggerations. Now I wonder what site/community is about doing that?

 

Because reproducibility is important. Because reducing the surface area for disagreement is important. Yes, a base convinced of "reality A" will never accept a set of results which supports "reality B" (and vice versa). However, plenty of people have more nuanced views. Someone who uses the same equipment as ASR but (1) publishes raw analyzer datasets in the spirit of open access — which IIRC ASR refused to do, (2) reaches different conclusions, and (3) does a good job of writing up the results on a less ephemeral platform than a web forum — at least has a fighting chance of reaching undecided voters.

 

You make a good point.

I still feel that Headfi and its cabal of shills is the greater evil. They are the main reason that "mid-fi" is now $1500 and DACs and Headphone amps can cost more than a car.

True enthusiasts are being priced out of the hobby.

Imagine an alternate universe in which Jude held manufacturers feet to the fire? In which he called out shoddy build quality at Rolex prices and massive treble holes or spikes?

Overpriced shit would not sell as much and good products at reasonable price points would be more common.

An asshole like Fang and his $50k system would be laughed out of the building instead of being worshipped like the second coming.

Amir is egotistical and misguided but Headfi has corrupted the hobby for the last 10 years.

I'll never forget how they shilled the nighthawk and the Ether and Ether Flow. Truly despicable.

I play basketball and follow basketball shoe reviewers on YouTube. The most popular guys trash and praise shoes from every brand. They make money from affiliate links but that doesn't stop them from honest criticism. I just wish the biggest website and influencer in our hobby had a shred of integrity. In so many other domains we have popular and more honest reviewers. The audio world unfortunately seems to attract some of the worst shills and snake oil salesmen

 

The audience loves snake oil.

Not much we can do about those people.

 

Exactly one can be an objectivist who spends time listening, and understands the limitations of the measurements based approach. Or one can be a subjectivist in the sense that what you hear is the final verdict (for you!) but still be smart enough to understand measurements, and most importantly what they mean it terms of what you hear.
In both cases the important word is : limitations.
That's who I aspire to be, a smart subjectivist. Taking into account my advanced age I do not like my chances.
But it could be worse, I could be a disciple of Amir, or , God forbid, believe in Michael Lavorgna's unhinged hallucinations.

 

Amir recommends class d amps that are all more distorted than something from Emotiva and justifies it based on bad measurements.

Why does Amir hate on distorted bass extension over obeying the physical limits of speaker drivers? He’s literally selling distortion but hides behind fake Floyd Toole and Sean Oliver Harman corporate science. Some of the speakers he recommends have 100% thd in the low end beneath 80-100 hz in real world use and massive imd in the midrange and high end. The class d monitors and amps have full scale imd at 18-20khz. An adult won’t hear it but that definitely affects what’s below it. A speaker that uses them better be voiced on the dull or dark side of neutral.

Yet at ASR Amir shilling waveguides and flat frequency response despite them being mutually exclusive. Waveguides and horns can never be flat. The JBL LSR high end will tear heads off. The Genelec and Neumann (Sennheiser! Not the real Neumann! ) speakers just have complex crossovers and sound pretty dead inside.

And then Amir and ilkness a flame war with the manufacturer of the most advanced midrange driver and soft dome tweeter on earth, a tweeter that’s built with wide horizontal directivity but limited vertical for even sound, easy treatment of reflection points with panels or bookcases or curtains, tables, ceilings, and mixing consoles. Yet Amir and Ilkness and their crew attacked ATC as 70s tech despite the midrange being from the mid 1990s and unsurpassed (that Tympany dome they shill is massively overdamped) and the tweeter being from the 2010s. And they totally ignore phase.

 

I get where those unfamiliar with sophisticated measurement equipment have difficulty understanding equivalency of results between systems. Having exactly the same equipment removes that argument. But it also tends to continue propagation of the idea that only brand ZYX analyzer produces acceptable results.

Examples:
Is Starrett the only mfg to be trusted for steel rules?
Is Ohaus the only mfg to be trusted for weight scales?
Is Fluke the only mfg to be trusted for DMMs?
Is Tektronix the only mfg to be trusted for oscilloscopes?
Is Keysight the only mfg to be trusted for frequency counters?
You get the picture.

Reproducability is important and can be accomplished across multiple measurement systems. Maybe we should have a standard component to send around among all the measurement types here. Pick a couple of standard measurements and have each measure with exactly the same setups, X and Y scales, FFT sizes etc. Unless something is seriously broken they should all produce nearly identical results within some measure of uncertainty due to environmental variables of Temperature, Humidity, ambient EMI / RFI etc.

 

Here is a comparison of Modi MB 1 KHz distortion at 0 dBFS between APx555 data from @schiit and my dScope.
dScope settings have been set to match those used for the APx555 data.
Graph axis have been scaled the same. I've attempted to match aspect ratios.

dScope


dScope graph only


APx555


I'd say those two measurements were substantially similar indicating successful reproduction and corroboration.

 

Sometimes I feel like @atomic Bob should be called @TheActualRealAudioScienceReview.

 

I kinda have a little different view -- you seem to misunderstand at least three things imho.

1. Same device model does not ensure same result. Sources of variability could be various. Whether it's ap555 or qa401 is just one factor of many. I bet those who understood this already disregarded ASR. For example, there are companies who use ap555. Compare them with Amir's measurements. Fairly easy to see results aren't that same always. To date I've not seen discrepancy debates from ASR forum members. Many such discrepancy are negligible? Yes, then the same applies to non-555 results (more in #2).

2. Reproducibility in scientific context does not require exact same devices. Even AP has various models in their product line. As long as carefully performed and discussed, contradictory findings from different researchers gain awareness from peer researchers. Is there a point to persuade unqualified folks who cannot do this? (more in #3)

3. Maybe most importantly, the reason why Amir could achieve high views and vast supporting is far from the nature of science. It's rather pornography that suits people's desire to see "giant killer story" in easy and comprehensible format -- which can't come with accuracy/robustness/quality. So again, the same question, what's the point to reach porno readers/watchers who already hate science?

The main reason why I posted this is getting 555 isn't as easily done as changing (in sw) panning window from kaiser to hann. Very costly by all means. Not only anti cost-worthy but also often wrongly used by stupid people just like they require ridiculous level of DBT for subjective assertions. Your logic per se isn't that wrong (mostly coming from different assumptions) but I bet it may be more handily used by evil-willed people who want to e-peen anything cheaper than 555.

 

I understand these things.

Consider the problem: why is reproducibility so low? Why isn’t anyone (AFAIK) publishing their exact procedures and raw datasets for other people to analyze? In no small part because (1) this stuff is difficult and requires multiple non-trivial skill sets, (2) no one will pay for it, (3) it requires vast amounts of time. The founder of ASR happens to have the time and money, and it would be good for another person to appear who has similar resources and a willingness to do the research, along with a willingness to listen when someone points out a (potential) mistake. At the very least, that person can produce a series of articles to help push measurements from a dark art to something remotely approaching science. Tyll used to be that person, but he had severe budget constraints.

Of course plenty of non-555 devices can give informative measurements. But if the point is to show ASR makes (potentially egregious) mistakes in measurements, then ya gotta play the ASR game. Like it or not, ASR is winning the battle for minds and eyeballs — to the point that manufacturers are obviously doing things to make sure their products measure well by ASR’s rules. This means people who disagree with ASR are on the back foot, and have to fight defensively. It obviously doesn’t feel good.

The comments from Psalm and Marv about high distortion from class D power amps that ASR values so highly seem like a great place to start. A paper (or blog post) with thorough procedures, full datasets, and a solid explanation would be a fantastic addition to the conversation. “This is where the measurements for class D diverge from class A/AB, here is the tradeoff being made, here are the numbers showing it, and here is the dataset — if you rent the equipment, you can reproduce the results. If you do that and get something different, let’s talk because maybe I fucked up and need to adjust my process.”

PS: Assuming bad faith on the part of everyone in the conversation is IMO counterproductive. Okay, ignore the trolls who keep changing the rules and moving the goalposts. Publish your article, publish the criticism. If the criticism has merit, adjust and rerun the experiment. Over time, the results should converge on some approximation of reality.

 

Well, send me an APx555 and I'll get started.