Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. mk801

    mk801 Almost "Made"

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    Any direct messages to Topping would probably net the following reply: "Please contact our customer care and support center at www.audiosciencereview.com"

    Cue the "Dead Parrot" sketch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
  2. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    While it may not be possible to conclusively prove any direct business connection between ASR and Topping, it is very clear that Topping would have never risen to the prominence without the exposure that the ASR forums have given them. In a sense, it was a very successful and shrewd marketing campaign that continues to this day even if it is fizzling out. You have to give credit where it’s due.

    Speaking for myself, I had never even heard of the Topping brand before I read the measurements of some of their devices on ASR. Has those “reviews” not given them an aura of legitimacy, I would have simply dismissed the brand as another awkwardly named outfit with copycat designs. They started with low-priced units and their whole spiel was that they were offering crazy performance at great value. This was the foot in the door moment.

    Now they are pushing $899 DACs that are audibly identical to $99 DACs and have a small army of dedicated followers and defenders. They have even managed to shift the direction of a company like Schiit to offer a few models that measure really well to protect their market share.

    I am truly intrigued to see where they go from here because I think the whole measurements fad has ran its course and is slowly imploding. At least when it comes to DACs and headphone amps. Are they going to switch to the dark side of subjectivism or expand into speakers amps and transducers?
     
  3. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    What is ASR? Some kind of masochist cult? Never occurred to me to join an audio forum to be afraid of punishment. Thankfully it is too late at my age.
     
  4. Ox Cart

    Ox Cart Facebook Friend

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    Not that this probably matters to anyone but myself, but writing it out is cathartic ...

    I've spent a fair amount of time at ASR, but I just logged out for what may be my last time. I was drawn to the place because, unlike a lot of other audio fora (present company excluded), ASR doesn't indulge the audiophile fantasy that "more expensive" automatically equals "more better". Also, I happen to think that there's a fair amount of value to the work that Amir does, and there are actually a handful of interesting and pleasant people that hang out there.

    What kills the ASR experience for me is the utter lack of curiosity or desire to advance our collective understanding of this audio stuff. Starting with the reviews, continuing to the trolls constantly trying to catch Amirm in a mistake as well as the sycophants blindly defending his every twitch and breath, I find it nearly impossible to have intelligent conversations in which I feel like I've contributed something. Bring up a suggestion for some interesting new experiments or a different way to look at a result, much less point out some methodological flaws, and you're automatically attacking Amir. Mention any of the interesting work that's being done by so many other people, and it immediately gets cut down as "not scientific" or "not professional" in comparison to what happens at ASR. Today, with a straight face, a senior member explained to a recalcitrant member that they best think of Amir as a professor, treat him with respect and accept whatever wisdom he imparts with gratitude and without question. I've known professors like that, and I found that their own lack of curiosity and unwillingness to learn made them poor teachers.

    While I'm far from agreeing with every last opinion here at SBAF, including the ones uttered by the principals, I get a feeling that there's a culture of learning, an inquisitiveness and the ability to have adult conversations without people getting butt-hurt right off the bat. So, I'm gonna try spending more time here and enjoy myself.
     
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  5. FlySweep

    FlySweep Friend

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    THIS. This right here is the perfect summation of what this 56 page (and counting) thread gets at.
     
  6. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I haven't really voiced an opinion so far on this because I tend to shy away from "forum wars" kind of shenanigans. To me, ASR started with semi-benign intent. Lets just measure a bunch of stuff (though sloppily) since there isn't a one-stop-shop for measurements (ahem, Soundstage.com at least for NRC speaker data...) that isn't being paid for by advertising revenue (i.e., Stereophile et al) and share on a forum where enthusiasts can try to make connections between their fallible subjective impressions and the science of sound to make better choices in purchasing gear. Early on, it was a good dialogue between subjective perceptions and the known science so far in human cognitive ability coupled with psychoacoustics. Early on, I remember spending more time reading the white papers/journal papers than the forum itself. It was that coupling between measurements and subjective impressions that got me to pay attention, at least.

    Then, it seemed to turn into a pseudo-James Randi-ish hyper anti-snake oil clique. It seemed that "high fidelity audio" was determined to be a "solved" problem (thanks to allah, i mean JBL, doing the spinorama!), and the measurements bore that out. Different digital source? Doesn't matter, if it measures past a certain threshold, doesn't matter. Buy the Kii 3s, or Genelec $20k monitors plugged into the soundcard in your PC and be assured you're not getting ripped off. That. is. the. state. of. the. art. I know, we get it, audiophiles tend to do stupid shit a lot of the time and we waste our money on stuff that shouldn't make a difference. Gulli-boomers rejoice in burning your pensions on majik rocks, Tice clocks, and Mpingo blocks. But, if we're enjoying the art more, what's the f'ing problem? My money, my delusion, right?

    Now the forum seems to have sold itself out for an even loonier position. It seems the ultimate arbiter of "value" in audiodom is a single man, sitting behind an APx555 with messy power cords, who shall not be questioned because 80% of the posters in the forum are impressionable millenial cheapskates, and, thanks to dubious associations with certain manufacturers, they have their answer: SINAD the barbarian. Kinda like Stereophile and TAS, and Wilson, YG Acoustics, Magico, DCS, and on and on chasing that boomer money. It's just silly. If anything, I feel bad for Amir since he's literally chasing the cheapest shit out of China for some (potential) kickback. Bud, there ain't much money left for you after they've printed the half-assed user manual for a $200 DAC. And the whole MQA deal? Where's James Randi's ghost when you really need him?
     
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  7. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    on this subject, I took delivery of some Mpingo blocks today and they're working wonders in my system. highly recommended

    [​IMG]
     
  8. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    It’s becoming clearer now why the whole MQA debate got so heated a few weeks ago. Topping just released another all-in-one device (EX5) that got highest recommendations, with MQA logos/ lights prominently displayed in multiple places on the front of the unit. This unit and the recently released D90SE must have already been completed and in production before the whole MQA video and the following drama took place.

    I can just imagine the sense of dread that the interested parties felt when this was taking place knowing the negative impact that it is likely to have on the devices that were just about to be released.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  9. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    Why do I disagree? There are alternative explanations for the ASR nonsense that seem more credible than an undisclosed financial interest in a niche product.

    My understanding is that Amir would have felt he was someone important at Microsoft - from what I saw of his site, he constantly boasts about hobnobbing with industry folk and having loads of engineers.

    However, with a decade of hindsight, it's clear his consumer division was little more than a strategic blunder. "Microsoft has been persistent in its pursuit of the digital music market for most of this century. But its efforts have been spectacularly unsuccessful. The Zune player became an easy punch line for sitcom writers.."

    And it's not just Zune - the rest of the consumer division products like Windows Media products and formats are near extinct. The strategy of siding with the recording industry with restrictive DRM, proprietary formats and exaggerated claims about those formats was totally vanquished by Apple's strategy of focussing on consumers and then supporting open formats. Microsoft's consumer push is nothing more than a bad memory for Seattle.

    When you think of Amir, think of him constantly trying to rationalise and blame others for the failures, and wanting to reclaim his former status. To me, that's a simpler and compelling explanation of his stance on MQA - he wants to be mixing with the recording industry again and he won't ever be a critic or stand with consumers.

     
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    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
  10. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    Exactly, the two are not mutually exclusive. Every time that ASR publishes measurements of a Topping device, I get this very uneasy feeling that it’s 90% for promotional purposes. It’s a mixture of very syrupy language and the fact that ASR has their hands on these devices way before they are released that gives me this impression. Sometimes they have it even before the price is announced.

    The whole MQA thing is a big elephant in the room in the two latest “reviews” of Topping devices and Amir fails to even mention it. For a brand that has made its claim to fame by dispelling audiophile myths, it is extremely ironic that their latest devices prominently display the MQA logo. The chief Topping engineer has expressed his distaste for MQA publicly which adds a layer of inconsistency when it comes to the brand messaging.

    While I have not been banned on ASR, I’m effectively being ignored by Amir and John Yang whenever I ask any pointed questions. That’s fine - a non-answer is an answer as well.
     
  12. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    While I check in this thread from time to time to catch up on what catastrophic shenanigans they kick up, I'm slightly too burnt out by various things to invest more thought than a lazy, dead meme for their lazy, dead meme-selves. Both of your posts were fully astute and apparently viable given history to date so yes, while @Woland's perspective makes perfect sense to me (Windows audio is the butt of many a joke for good reason), yours does too given what I see of Topping's recent product line, @bboris77.

    I'm back to relaxing with Kate Bush and Bowie and the apparently-enabling of xenophobia Billie Eilish on my headphones. Perhaps not a playlist that makes sense but who cares, eh?
     
  13. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    Another hypothesis:

    MQA is in trouble. The current CEO has served his function of building relationship with record companies. But he is belligerent and has struggled to win over the public.

    If you wanted to turn the company around, who would you approach to replace him? Maybe a thought leader with a good social media presence and experience selling compression and DRM. Maybe best to strike up a low-key conversation early, with the idea that he can move across when the time is right.

    Pure speculation, of course. But the company is in trouble and needs a savior or a shutdown.

    And all because of those meddling kids -- @GoldenOne , Archimago and the rest.



    Edit/postscript: someone asked Amir about a very similar hypothesis a few years back. According to his story, his division wasn't a disaster and embarrassment of epic proportions.. apparently he should be seen as another Jeff Bezos.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
  14. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    Wow he really thinks highly of himself. I'm assuming he passed up the CEO role when Gates retired.
     
  15. Yethal

    Yethal Facebook Friend

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    1000 employees and they couldn't come up with a working music player?
     
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  16. Bobcat

    Bobcat Friend

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    Consider the leader...
     
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  17. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
  18. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    There are pages of boasting.. agtp quotes some of it in his question on MQA..

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    He's probably also the brains behind SpaceX and Boston Dynamics. What a trailblazer.
     
  20. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Imagine thinking the tech industry hasn't changed in over a decade...
     
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