Bay Area 3/26 SBAF Meet Impressions Thread

Discussion in 'The Meeting Place' started by velvetx, Mar 26, 2016.

  1. knerian

    knerian Friend

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  2. knerian

    knerian Friend

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    @MoatsArt, brencho pretty much summed it up - in the top pic from left to right it's me in the blue shirt, bill-p standing up, drfindley in the ny hat, brencho with the beard, velvetx with red hair and glasses, and @No_One411 with his back to us talking shit about Bill-p's HD-580. @No_One411 is also in the next pic looking down at Bill-P's dandruff.

    philipmorgan looks just like he does in his avi.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  3. NoStream

    NoStream Acquaintance

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    I had a bunch of fun today listening to stuff and meeting/remeeting/seeing folks from the NorCal scene.

    I think the most interesting things at meets for me are comparisons, so...


    [​IMG]

    Stats room
    : 009 > 007.1 > Bill-P Modded 007.2.5 > 007.2.5

    I was really glad to hear that I preferred the 009's, since I'd only heard the 9's and 7's separately before I bought my pair. The 7.1's are darker than I remembered, and apparent detail's noticeably less than the 9's. I really think the 7.1's are just dark. Or, at least, if you buy the argument that stock 650's are dark, you should also buy that the 7.1's are dark. So then the 7.2s are really quite dark. But they're still airy. Talking with Bill, he said the last octave is in fact a bit elevated on the 7's vs. the 650's, and that makes sense. And the 7's are in fact really technically good. I haven't heard a better laid-back type headphone. But they just don't beat or equal the 9's.

    I thought the modded 2.5's had partially fixed the tonal balance issue but potentially at the cost of increased peakiness. I could be speaking out of my rear, so I'd be curious to see an FR plot.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Tube room: ZD > SP Extreme > DNA Stratus > Crack (w/ HD600)

    I preferred the ZD. Bass hit the hardest / sounded most extended to me. The SP Extreme was a lot of fun - very forward but also smooth. Stratus came across as more neutral to me than the OTL options but also less bassy. The Stratus didn't sound overall warm to me - more midrange-centric and borderline harsh in the upper mids. (Note: it sounded great with the Code-X.) The Crack was my least favorite. It just didn't sound resolving and the mids sounded colored. These impressions were literally from listening to one song on each, so don't take them very seriously.

    [​IMG]

    Other good stuff:

    HE1000 - so smooth. Actually really quick, ethereal, stat-like presentation. These are great for the HD-650 loving crowd - another contender for an upgrade, though I'd also recommend the 007.1's for that purpose. I thought the bass was pretty good but not on par with the HE-6's. The two are on opposite ends of the flavor spectrum, but I like each quite a bit.

    Code-X - wow. Really impressively neutral, great tone, lacking pretty much anything as far as flaws. I guess they're not technically as good as the 009s. Not sure vs. the 800(S) without a direct comparison.

    [​IMG]

    Findley's Vinyl Rig (I heard VPI --> Torpedo III --> 600s w/ a live Neil Young recording that I wasn't familiar with) - magical. lush, organic, liquid. This is the sort of sound that sells people on vinyl. But I don't have the space. Still cool.

    Torpedo III - I thought this was great. It's actually a pretty tubey-sounding amp, but still powerful and not aggressively colored. But tubey. Comparing it to TMoney's new ECP transformer-coupled SS design, it was less grainy but also less resolving. I preferred it with the 800S. I thought it held its own vs the ZD as well. If I were looking for a Senn amp in the low $1xxx range, this would be at the top of my list.

    Misc:

    [​IMG]

    HD800S - enjoyed these but didn't prefer them to my olive-tip mod OG-800. I guess I just don't mind the slight brightness of the 800 since my hearing's pretty intact and I listen around 70-75 dB.

    Abyss - I don't understand these one bit. I couldn't get a seal but I guess some prefer either with or without a seal? Anyway the mids sounded pretty scooped out and colored to me.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. FlySweep

    FlySweep Friend

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    Those B&W photos are terrific, @NoStream.
     
  5. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    yeah man, great photos!
     
  6. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Did anyone sample the TIII with planars? I have read in the TIII thread about it somehow being less optimal with planars, yet it seems capable of around 1W with either high or low impedance loads... (not sure what the issue might be)

    +1 on the fantastic grayscale photography, as well.
     
  7. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    This meet was fantastic. How else can you sample such a wide variety of good and great gear w/o a manufacturer's rep scrutinizing/pressuring you?

    I was primarily interested in meeting SBAF folks, listening to new-to-me amps via headphones I am familiar with (my modded HD-650s) and secondarily interested in hearing a wide variety of gear I've never experienced firsthand before (HD800, etc).

    All impressions are, of course, limited by the context (limited time, background noise, unfamiliar music, etc.) and the fact that I went in with a bit of expectation bias in favor of the ZDS and ECP amps, so take my impressions with a grain of salt.

    Amps

    Listening to the tube and ECP amps taught me a lot about my preferences. Simply put, I like a rowdy, rock and roll amp character. It fits my music preferences better. I listen to exactly zero classical music with the exception of modern outliers like Nils Frahm, which might explain why I preferred Zana Deux Super > @drfindley's Torpedo III > @TMoney's Crack-a-two-a or @No_One411's Singlepower.

    I didn't get a great sense of resolving ability (for which I have to listen closely to very well-known tracks multiple times), but for sure the Zana Deux Super just made music more fun. At one point I was convinced that it was more detailed and resolving than any of the other tube amps, and then at another point with different music I was sure that it was pretty indistinguishable from the TIII. I found the Crack-a-two-a had the same muscular, punchy, fun quality as the ZDS. At times it came across to me like a "baby Zana".

    @No_One411's DNA Stratus was beautiful. To me it completely lacked that rock and roll character, which might make it perfect for music genres that I don't listen to. I kept using the word "soft" to describe it, but I think it also had a very smooth and delicate character. Sort of like a Ella Fitzgerald (the Stratus) compared to Lucinda Williams (the OTL amps and the TIII).

    @No_One411's Singlepower amp was the sleeper for me. I'd rate it on par with the Crack-a-two-a or maybe a notch above. It had a distracting hum with the volume at ~50% and no music playing (environmental causes perhaps?), but it was really a kickass, lively, engaging sound when music was playing.

    My "sound quality ROI" pick would be the TIII. It's a great combination of dynamics, resolution, and price, and although I only listened to it through Sennheisers, I suspect it would handle other headphones nicely. It did seem to soften the "edges" of notes a tiny bit compared to the ZDS, which made the TIII seem less detailed, but its well-balanced combination of qualities makes it an incredibly good value IMO.

    My "ultimate sound quality" pick is the ZDS. It's everything I like in terms of sound character, quality, and appearance (I've always loved the "made by tasteful Soviets" look and owned an unfortunate number of Russian film cameras over the years as a result).

    My "fun ROI" pick would be the Singlepower or the Crack-a-two-a. If resolving ability is not that important and a dynamic, punchy, aggressive quality is, there's no better return on investment than these two amps, at least in terms of what I heard at this meet.

    I had fairly limited listening time with @TMoney's ECP Amp. It was visually stunning (except for the back plate which seemed sorta phoned-in compared to the rest of the exquisite materials and craftsmanship) and had a wonderfully balanced, clear, well-behaved sound.

    Again, take all this with a grain of salt. It could be that with more listening time I'd discover that the Crack-a-two-a's limited resolving ability tarnishes its other qualities, etc. Dunno, but there be my amp impressions.

    Other Headphones

    I listened to a variety of Staxen for the first time ever. I can see the appeal for certain types of music. Most of them added a steely quality to music that would be unwelcome with the kind of music I listen to.

    I heard several HD-800/800s for the first time ever. Super impressive headphones. Again I can see the appeal and I will eventually own some that I'll have to mod/EQ to make work well for me. They just seem 3 to 6 dB too hot in the upper midrange and treble.

    In fact, @Bill-P's modded 580s seemed like a "baby HD-800" to me. Just incredibly resolving-sounding with slamming bass, which I love, but overall more bright than I prefer. Loved the pads he used (are those Brainwave pads, @Bill-P?), and it was kind of fun being able to see through the translucent driver.

    @Noodlz's 540s were the sleeper headphone of the meet for me. They just sounded awesome. Of course you have to put up with the heavy 80's vibe their plasticky construction exudes, but it's worth it for the sound. I slapped them on my measurement rig (remember, meet conditions w/background noise, etc) and they measure impressively well:

    L channel of Sennheiser HD540s FR.png
    L channel of Sennheiser HD540s CSD.png

    I also briefly heard an HE-6 out of a Rag and I can see why people get excited about the HE-6 bass. It is immediately, noticeably badass.

    @drfindley's f'ing Vinyl Rig

    It's just not fair. :) Literally everything I listened to sounded better when it was hooked up to Adam's vinyl rig.

    I was fully prepared to call bullshit on the talk of "emotional involvement" etc, but this was the one piece of gear I just didn't want to stop listening to. It's an exaggeration to say so, but I felt like you could hook up any kind of garbage amp or headphone to this and it would sound great. Very impressive, and thanks Adam for hauling this out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  8. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    I have a bit of a busy day today so impressions are going to be brief.

    Best part of the meet was talking to everyone. The Bay Area SBAF crowd is just fantastic. I enjoyed talking to everyone even more than I enjoyed listening to the gear. Speaking of gear, the quality of gear at this meet was as good as any meet I've been to.

    On to impressions.

    [​IMG]


    The Stax Room
    • First off, how awesome is it to have two different Stax rigs, two different 009s and two different 007s all together in a single room?! Pretty darn sweet if you ask me.
    • I really liked the 007mk1s. They have a lush beauty to them that is straight up intoxicating. If I had to own only one Stax headphone it would still be the 009 as I hear them as the technically more competent headphone of the two, but the 007mk1 is a phenomenal 2nd headphone.
      • The 007mk1 is very much the HD650 to the HD600 of the 009s.
    • The Woo CD player (behind the stack) into the McIntosh DAC/Pre was a very nice source. I thought it sounded very good through the Stax. McIntosh gear is beautiful to look at.
      • I would have loved to compare the McIntosh Pre to my own Pass pre but we didn't have the time.
    • I compared the SRM-717 and the Cavalli Liquid Lightning using both the 009s and the 007mk1s. The 717 is better. Don't buy the Liquid Lightning. I also wasn't especially impressed with the Cavalli Carbon that was floating around.
      • It is possible that either HC has poisoned me against all things Cavalli or I just don't like his sound. Or both.
    • I didn't listen to the @Bill-P modded 007mk2 and I wish I had.
    [​IMG]

    The Tube Room (aka the "Sweat Lodge")
    • We basically had most of the tube amps contenders in the $1,000 to $2,000 range all in one room. Did I mention this meet was awesome?
    • All amps in the Tube Room were running off the Gungnir Multibit.
    • Holy smokes did all those tubes put off a lot of heat. You could feel it when you walked in the door, hence the "sweat lodge" moniker.
    • I used my unmodded HD600 to listen to the same song on all the tube amps. In order of preference I liked:
      • 1st Place - EC ZDS - Do you want a balls-to-the-wall sounding OTL amp? This is it! While it is far from the last word in terms of accuracy this was the most enjoyable amp in the room for me. I wish it didn't run so hot, but my goodness is it fun to listen to.
      • 2nd Place - (tie) Rebuilt Singlepower OTL and Bottlehead Crack 2.These amps sounded pretty similar to me and I'd have to do some more testing to figure out which of the two I liked better. Neither were quite as lush and "tubey sounding" as the ZDS, but both have that OTL tube sound that is so easy to listen to.
      • 3rd Place - DNA Stratus. This amp was the loser of the bunch for me. It sounded soft and somewhat stuck in between a tube sound and a solid state sound... maybe it is the output transformer? The Stratus does not have that full, warm bass that the other three OTL tube amps had and I picked up on that right away. This is the only amp in the group that I wouldn't care to own. Also 2x3-pin XLR needs to die.
    • While I loved a lot of amps in the room, I think I'm a bit more of a solid state kind of guy than a tube guy. That being said I really like having a tube amp as my second amp/work rig.
    [​IMG]

    The Vinyl Room
    • First off, big props to @drfindley for hauling his vinyl rig to yet another meet. You truly are the @shaizada of the north, my friend. Findley is doing an amazing job of converting people to the cult of vinyl. I've been able to hold out so far, but every time I hear his rig it gets harder and harder to stay with digital only. If you are in the bay-area and haven't heard Finley's vinly rig yet you owe it to yourself to do so.
    • The smooth, organic sound Findley's vinly rig easily bested the Yggdrasil I brought. I plugged the vinyl rig in to my Pass/ECP stack and spent a solid 20 minutes listening to an entire side of a record. It was bliss.
    • I compared the HD800S and the HE-1000 on my rig. Boy are the HE-1000 ever a nice headphone. The HE-1000 really does everything at a "B+" level. It has no weaknesses other than price, but it also didn't really blow me away the way the HD800S does with its imaging and sound-stage (an "A+"). The HD800S is soft down low (I'd give it a "C" grade in the bass), and may still be fatiguing to some, but it was my favorite headphone I listened to at the meet.
    • Grado PS-1000 and AKG 812. No thanks. The Grados were straight up not good while the AKGs were way to treble-centric. I didn't like either headphone.
    • Findley and I did an ECP amp shootout with my DSHA-4 and Findley's soup-ed up Torpedo III running off the vinyl rig. Both are great amps. The Torp III has some great romantic sparkle up top that makes it really fun to listen to. Findley preferred the Torp III and I can totally understand why. It really is a special sounding amp. The DSHA-4 in contrast is a bit more straight-up and honest to the source with superior power and drive in the low mids to bass region. Wire-with-gain is much more my sound, so I much preferred the DSHA-4. Honestly, you can't go wrong with either amp. Both were strong performers.
      • I didn't get a chance to hear the Torp III against the other amps in the Tube Room and I really wish I had.
    • We brought the SRM-717, 009 and 007mk1 in to the Vinyl Room to do a shootout with the HD800S running of my ECP/Pass stack. Both rigs were running off Findley's vinyl rig. For the first time ever I actually preferred the HD800S to the Staxen. Something must be wrong with me :eek:.
    • HE-6 running of Firstwatt F5. I'm not sure it had enough bass ;).

    Concluding Thoughts

    I want to thank everyone again for coming and for bringing such great gear to the meet. This was probably the best mini-meet I have been to and I've been attending meets and mini-meets pretty religiously since 2010.

    @velvetx is a fantastic host. I hope he doesn't have to move, but if he does you so-cal SBAF'ers better take good care of him.

    Last but not least, FeelsGoodMan when my favorite rig/headphones are the ones I brought :D.
     
  9. recarcar

    recarcar Friend

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    This was a great meet! A big thanks to @velvetx for putting this together. It was great to see old faces and meet some new ones as well. While there was a ton of great gear, I MEAN A TON, the highlight was definitely catching up with everyone.

    Although I didn't get a chance to hear everything, the Stax room was crazy (thanks @knerian!), and the VPI Classic 3 with the HD800 and HD800s were my favorites (thanks @drfindley and @TMoney). @Bill-P's modded HD580 was very nice. Those old 580 and 600 drivers are great.
     
  10. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Andddd, I recovered and reassembled my HD800 with full SuperDupont and Absorber mod. Adding the cork tonight. I wish i could have handed them off for you guys. I will do someone else's HD800 with the SuperDupont so you guys can compare full vs partial mods before the next meet.
     
  11. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Nice write up TMoney & philipmorgan!

    Seems the Torpedo 3 held its ow against the most expensive amps. Anyone listen to it & the EC Black Widow? Wondering how they compared.
     
  12. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    BW went down for the count early in the meet. I think the knob came loose and we didn't have a proper sized screwdriver.

    TIII definitely was a pleasant surprise.
     
  13. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    I did. They both sounded awesome, but I didn't know whether I was being impressed by the vinyl rig they were both plugged in to or the amp itself, so I can't really comment more.
     
  14. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    So... my impression for this meet goes as follow:

    I liked SR-009 driven by Ragnarok and Yggdrasil the most.

    [​IMG]

    Followed by SR-009 driven by... Geek Out V2+ in balanced mode. Code-X/HEK out of Liquid Lightning Mk.II was also good. Modded headphones were also able to make me smile.

    [​IMG]

    Everything else were okay... ish. SR-007mk1 out of Geek Out V2+ in balanced mode was a horrible experience. Warmth + congestion. SR-007mk1 out of DNA Stratus was only marginally better. SR-009 out of Zana Deux Super was bright like a mofo. But it wasn't as bad as HD650 out of SRM-717, which was hands down the grainiest sound I have ever heard. On a positive note, HD800 out of Liquid Lightning Mk.II (w/ Spritzer mods) sounded okay. Warm-ish but didn't really blow me away. All Gungnir Multibit's at the meet were horrible, and that's why I'm selling mine. May consider discounting it a bit more for local Bay Area folks who want to "feel the pain".

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and... tube amp shoot-out! I compared the tube amps using the worst headphone in existence that I know of, just to see if the amps could make it sound better. Long story short, I am happy to say... they didn't!

    [​IMG]

    Best amp? I don't know. Ask Jeff. He seemed to know, and may be thinking about (staring at?) that amp in this photo...

    [​IMG]

    And that's it.

    What am I talking about? Well, shrug! :p

    Oh, and most impressive to me at the meet? The booth babes! All 14 of them! Well done, @velvetx. Next time, I wouldn't mind a meet where there are only booth babes!
     
  15. 3X0

    3X0 Friend

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    Oh damn.

    What transformer box were you guys using to drive the Stax from non-ES amps?
     
  16. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    We didn't. My post was simply a joke since I didn't do much critical listening, aside from the tube amps. :)

    The take-away really is where I mention a SR-009 or HD800, you can assume a bright headphone, and where I mention SR-007 or HD650, you can assume a dark headphone, and that they won't have any problem getting connected to the amps.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The use of Adam's Classic 3 TT is considered cheating!

    Amp/headphone comparisons across different sources (particularly if the sources are wide apart in terms of capability) and recordings (vinyl is always mastered differently than digital), not to mention the issue of specific masters within each format, cannot be valid, unless one is familiar with those sources (and recordings) and can calibrate accordingly.

    I only mention this because I cringe at the "sloppy" gear comparisons at meets that I read about on HF (or have personally witnessed.) It's so bad sometimes that I see noobs comparing setups at different tables using completely different recordings, and then making definitive statements.

    Here is an example. I can use the SACD version of Michael Jackson's Thriller album to make a very solid setup sound bass lite and thin. The reason is because the SACD Thriller actually does sound thin. Same thing with DACs. A headphone/amp setup sourced by a Mytek DSD DAC is going to sound very different from if it were sourced by a Sonic Frontiers DAC.

    The first rule of thumb with comparing gear: know the source - not just the DAC or TT, but down to the recording, and the specific master.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Another thing to check is software player settings. At the OC mini-meet, Jason brought a Vali 2 with some unknown source with X00 headphones. I found a track I was familiar with and went "WTF". I then switched to another track that I was familiar with, and still thought "WTF". I thought about it for a little while and then proceeded to check the JRiver settings. It turns out the EQ had been played with. These things happen and believe it or not, most people will not know.
     
  19. knerian

    knerian Friend

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    I completely agree with Marv that it makes no sense to use different sources with music you're not familiar with, or masters that are not identical. I heard some others at the meet talking about how Tyll uses 15 second loops to test gear. I think that is brilliant.
     
  20. knerian

    knerian Friend

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    Also I was really impressed with security at this meet. Due to the theft of the HEX and cart at the previous socal meet, Nick appointed @Bill-P as head of security.

    I was flagged for a random search, but overall I would say the experience went very well. Before and after the meet @Bill-P had me undress to make sure there was no contraband, he was pretty thorough and made sure I didnt have any headphones or amps hidden in my rectum either. I did have trouble walking today but I think it was totally worth it to ensure the safety of everyones gear. I kind of freaked out when I found a power cable in my toilet bowl this morning, but luckily it was my own power cable, for a second I had a moment of panic as I thought I would have to explain how I accidentally smuggled someone's power cable out of the meet.
     

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