Beyerdynamic T1 Generation 2 Measurements

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Nov 11, 2015.

  1. Negura

    Negura Friend

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    My T1 v1 pair from long ago and from memory also had recessed mids. What is awkward with gen2 is that they manage to be even less coherent sounding... At least the V1 were more neutral down low with a bright sounding treble. These are warm / phat sounding in the lower FR and transition all the way to very bright. They also seem to sound more closed in. I could not tolerate the barbed wire treble of my V1 pair and this is no better. So a deal breaker for me personally, as is.

    I probably prefer the more "honest" sounding V1. And of course many other headphones to both.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  2. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    Yeah, let's get a working pair first and see if they measure any differently.
     
  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    This looks like an AKG plus Grado ear rape. Ear canal rape.
     
  4. Negura

    Negura Friend

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    Ultrasone + Grado.

    (Ok - really not that bad - just very underwhelming)
     
  5. SSL

    SSL Friend

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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I'll post a comparison to my V1 rig tonight. That way we get direct comparable measurements between Gen 1 and Gen 2.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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  8. logscool

    logscool Friend

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    Definitely a bit of a disappointment as I was hoping they could fix a lot of the problems of the original T1 and make them a true HD800 or even HD800S competitor from what I'm seeing so far these won't be on my high-end open headphones of interest list.
     
  9. borrego

    borrego Incessant Audio-GD #1 Fan Boy

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    The T1 needs to pair with amp with output stage of very low negative feedback to sound right. On my Phasetech EPA-007, my T1 v1 sounds significantly differently with the damping knob (controlling the NFB of the amp) at 8 o'clock position comparing to at 9 o'clock position. The T1 just sounds sublime with the damping knob set 8 o'clock. The T1 sounds worse (with metallic tone, harsh treble, etc) than my Alessandro MS2e with the damping knob set at 10 o'clock position.

    I also have the T70 (250 ohm) and it behaves similarly to the T1. It sounds best at between 8-9 o'clock damping knob position.

    I think it has something to do with the T1's impedance characteristics. The design of most amps would probably automatically apply too much NFB when reacting with its up to 1200ohm impedance.

    I am not surprised when reading the T1 sounds good on Bakoon's current output amp. Because the current output design does not have voltage feedback control.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  10. LeSpookySkelington

    LeSpookySkelington New

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    So you have the pair the T1s with exotic amps just to soften the overly harsh treble? Why can´t Beyer simply reduce the insane peak by a few dbs? Instead they try to compensate with bass emphasis which results in an even more unnatural sound. They never seem to learn.
     
  11. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Is the output impedance of that amp change (increase) when NFB is reduced?
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In most cases yes. Bass boost because of impedance bump of T1 and overall softening of sound because amp is wasting power instead of letting the headphone get the power.

    Exotic amps don't work. I've tried BA, Stratus, etc. Doesn't matter. Maybe defective or colored amps.
     
  13. borrego

    borrego Incessant Audio-GD #1 Fan Boy

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    On the EPA-007 amp, there is a separate output impedance control. It does not change the the frequency response of the T1 much as far as I can listen. The impedance control affect the "speed" of the phones more: higher output impedance = longer diaphragm decay.

    The NFB control also affects the overall gain of the amp. At low NFB setting, the volume is slightly higher.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  14. borrego

    borrego Incessant Audio-GD #1 Fan Boy

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    I used the damping/NFB control to get a natural tone from the T1. For fixing the treble peak I just use EQ

    That amp is not exotic by any mean. It costs around USD1,000 brand new from Japan. I bought it used at half of that price.
     
  15. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Ok thanks for clarifying.

    While I don't doubt your claims that it does sound different, I do question whether it's specific to the T1. Perhaps you are picking up on the amplifier's inherent characteristic that changes with NFB rather than a driver-load interaction.
     
  16. LeSpookySkelington

    LeSpookySkelington New

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    It´s not that I hate the T1s, but to my ears they sound metallic and harsh regardless of amp and dac pairing. Even Beyers own 100 Ohm output impedance amps don´t seem to help much. What kind of EQ do you use for fixing the peak?
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Added some pictures and minor comments in the second post.
     
  18. borrego

    borrego Incessant Audio-GD #1 Fan Boy

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    Metallic Tone is exactly the syndrome of amp having too much NFB. High output impedance tube amps aren't immune.

    The is the EQ (https://flic.kr/p/ArstUm) I use in with J River Media Center 21. Linear Phase, Flat line overflow, ASIO output with Windows 8 setting to optimize for background processes.

    I use EQ for all my other headphones and speaker setup. So I don't find applying -3dB at high treble range too unreasonable for the T1.

    Just for information, my T1 is V1 with serial number of 16xxx.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's been postulated that Beyer headphones were designed for amps with 120ohm output per IEC spec. I think this situation has more to do with higher amplifier output impedance than NFB. I am almost positive the dial on your amp which decreases NFB also increases output impedance since it affects gain.

    None of this changes the fact that T1 Gen 1 and especially Gen 2 measure with significant peaks in the treble and still sounds difficult (but somewhat more tolerable) to most people from amps with zero or minimal feedback. The T1 Gen 2 should be priced at $349 not $1099.

    T1 Gen 1 is OK. T1 Gen 2 is shit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  20. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Not neccessarily if the Zout is low enough in the first place. It will change but not significantly. 1ohm -> .1ohm
     

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