Considerations before going down the vinyl rabbit hole

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by purr1n, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    I used to own a ton of metal lps but they often sounded worse or as bad as the CDs. The stuff that is known for early country of origin LPs sounding a lot better (Iron Maiden, Slayer, Bathory, Mercyful Fate, anything where the CDS were needledrops) are worth BANK in all caps. The good pressings are unobtanium. I sold most of my lps at a loss except for a lot of early 90s death and black metal that idiot hipsters ate up because they didn't realize CDs were the prestige physical format until the 2000s. I bought multiple copies of a lot of shit for nothing in the 2000s and sold them for bank. Often the original early 90s cds were harder to find than the lps then because people don't sell good shit. In the 90s, many of these LPs were pressed by just mailing a CD to GZ. Now that stupid beat up translucent purple swirl LP that looks like it was previously used as a decorative joint rolling surface by Phish fans in 1994 is worth more than the CD.
     
  2. DEATHxMACHINE

    DEATHxMACHINE Friend

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    Its how I started out and most people I know who have recently got into vinyl. Vinyl is not that hard nor is purchasing used equipment. Your are assuming every absolute vinyl virgin is an idiot. I would be pretty confident recommending used equipment to most SBAF members. Vinyl is not alien technology or voodoo. It hasn't changed much since the early 80s and it is an easy argument that the older stuff was built to a higher standard and is more reliable than the new stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  3. luckybaer

    luckybaer Friend

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    I guess I’m thinking of a more cautious noob getting into vinyl - one that has no experience. Folks like me, who drifted away from vinyl at the dawn of the digital age, who also are patient tweakers, could definitely dive in per your guidance. I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t admit my foray BACK into vinyl started with a Kenwood KD-2070 about 10 years ago.

    You’ve got to admit it takes a special person - especially in this age of convenience and instant gratification - to successfully cope with, and get the most out of vinyl (regardless of budget)?
     
  4. joch

    joch Friend

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    No such luck. I was young, and CDs were the future. I did keep a few albums that I couldn't bring myself to sell, but I doubt these are as good as the re-releases with better quality vinyl.

    I'm just now wondering if old CDs from the 80s and 90s will be worth something these days. Some swear by Japanese or European pressing.
     
  5. Melvillian

    Melvillian Friend

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    that’s how you started out when you were a kid. It’s different from a grown person who has already developed a certain expectation for what they want to hear. You seem to constantly be missing the point and are just coming across as a contrarian. If I do get into vinyl it will be through vintage gear, but that’s because I have a friend who knows vintage turntables well. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to recommend new tables to complete newcomers because you can guarantee some consistency.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  6. ogodei

    ogodei MOT: Austin AudioWorks

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    Living in the Chicago 'burbs has been a godsend to me. Old, rich people from the city moving to Florida or Arizona and they cant take their set up with them.

    Is Goodwill still a bargain? Heard they were getting pretty savvy at pricing stuff & selling online where appropriate.
     
  7. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Facebook Friend

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    Disagree. Buying a used turntable is far removed from most other types of component. You need to gauge the quality of the table by asking the seller questions & think hard on if you trust that seller to properly ship the table. I think you'd be shocked how many vintage tables are totaled in the shipping process.
     
  8. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Well even common LPs that don’t suck like rumors are worth a couple of bucks now. If your CDs are some cult stuff, yeah they’re worth something. If they’re Nirvana, they’re worth a few bucks only because the remasters not Albini’s og In Utero mix were trash. Menundo? Landfill.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  9. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    I've got an SL-1800mk2 with a AT33PTG/II and a SPL Phonos and this simple setup kicks the living shit out of my digital front end (I've been cycling through R2R PCM63 DACs for a while) on all sonic fronts aside from 20hz bass extension... but that doesn't even really matter unless I'm listening to EDM, which I find better suited to tape or digital than wax anyway. The AT cart tracks extremely well and picks up dramatically less surface noise than any MM I've tried (had a few ATs and Ortofons in the past). AT440 was pretty cool when I had it (Stanton 881S was solid too but mine had some wear when it arrived), but I can't say they bested my favorite DACs like the AT33PTG does.

    The low-end ProJect wasn't worth it in my mind. Thorens 125 never quite did it for me either (though I know this is lowly regarded compared to other 12X tables). Got both of those second-hand at under $500 outfitted with decent MM carts. Maybe could have sounded better with more meticulous setup. Meh. I did use and enjoy a $50 second-hand Yamaha YP-D6 (put the AT440 on this one), and I found it a better performer than the other two at dramatically lower cost. Then again, I had different speakers with each of these TT swaps.

    Someone told me once that analog isn't worth it from a purely sonic standpoint vs an equivalently-priced DAC unless you're willing to invest about $2000 or more into a cart, table, and phono stage together. So basically, don't spend more on a DAC than the cost of Yggdrasil if you're considering going analog. My vinyl setup is about there, and I would say it's worth it once you get to this point (maybe you could spend less if you're good at finding deals and can be sure you're doing a proper setup).

    We sling an assload of VPI in particular at Upscale, but their tables seem a bit... fickle in my mind. Tweaky. Given my level of modding nervosa... not sure I could handle the seemingly infinite amount of potential setup variables. I like the simplicity of the Technics I have at home, though it's definitely not the last word on what vinyl has to offer. I could always open it up and mass load / damp the inside to try to improve sound quality, but I don't really find myself left wanting in terms of the presentation.

    I've had some bad luck with post-2000 jazz and classical reissues and pop records, but a lot of the stuff I listen to comes out of Europe or Japan, and the pressing quality seems mostly good. I've got a big collection of post-rock and ambient (Godspeed, Tim Hecker, Sangam etc) and haven't had any complaints with these. I have yet to experiment with tracking vinyl to tape, though this could be a good way to preserve records. Feel like I'd need A-stock Chrome tapes to preserve the high end though, and that adds up cost-wise. I use my tape decks more often than my turntable, but that just comes down to the fact that tapes are cheaper and more contemporary artists I like are releasing on tape and not vinyl.

    /end rant

    EDIT : It'd be cool if we had a SBAF google drive / dropbox folder where we could share vinyl / tape rips and things like that!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Hey, I love Golden Corral. In fact, I think I'm heading to the one in Oxnard right now for lunch.

    The three Goodwill's around my place, for records, yes. No one wants them. They will be saavy to good audio gear, like receivers. Those go behind the counter and are priced a bit too high IMO.
     
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Illegal. Go to illegal websites for that or buy illegal Russian or Greek needledrop bootleg CDs of famous titles without legitimate CDs from intact tapes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  12. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Dude that is exactly what I was looking at: U-Turn Orbit Custom with 2M Blue and Pluto phonostage. This was recommended to me as someone who wants something braindead simple with very little tweaking involved. It would be a decent starter table to find out if I even like vinyl and all the quirks that come with it. Better to go cheap as a n00b, then spend a couple grand on a table only to find out I hate vinyl.

    Can you tell me how much maintenance is involved with the U-Turn? Is this your first table? Are there any tutorials you followed online for optimal setup and how to use?

    I'd like to have a modest TT setup because I have a crate of really old records that I've been dying to play. One of them is a Duke Ellington LP where my digital rip of it is simply unlistenable (never came out with a digital release). And Layla and Exile on Main St. sound so much better on vinyl, all the CD remasters are joke in comparison.
     
  13. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    They come set up from U-Turn for the specific cartridge, and I haven't done any maintenance on it. This is my first setup, but I've heard many different ones from my dad and different friends. The only things I've done is put the queue lever on it and ordered a weight and a spare belt (still using the original one). It's about as simple as it gets.
     
  14. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Microgroove technology was from the late 1940's. It was 1951 before Stereo records. Since then all else has improved until the peak with vinyl mastering, manufacturing, and reproduction around the mid to late 80's. We could re-hash all that, but if you want the history it is out there.

    Yes, it is a limited format. Mono bass for the most part below 150 or 200hz (that is a mastering engineer decision btw, and not an actual standard, however has mostly become a de-facto standard for modern recordings since we have mics and mic preamps that actually do that lower octave justice). Yes, it is a bitch to deal with. In terms of convenience it is up there, and only about equal to that of CD as far as actual sound quality or fidelity. I think the recording and playback equipment has a huge factor on what you get out of it.

    And yes, digital mastering was introduced in the 80's as things like look ahead gain control and such could be built. Like the GAIN system from MoFi that Mike Moffat helped build for DAC to the cutting lathe. Then MoFi then built the GAIN 2 system a bit later. However, MoFi pressings are the top of the heap as far as modern recordings go for quality of mastering and pressing. And now MoFi is doing no more mastering to speak of.

    Only reel-to-reel has a higher inconvenience factor, but one of the highest fidelity of all the analog formats. And the consumer 3 1/4 ips taps still sound like crap - only slightly better than cassette. 7 1/4 ips consumer tapes can be absolutely fantasic, but good luck finding some affordable outside AM radio favorites from the 60's and 70's. Thrift stores are your friend (although not in Nashville because everyone here is into music dammit...don't get me started).

    There are many titles I have on vinyl that I don't have on CD, or maybe I just have one song from said artist or one CD, yet I have the album. And I can always fire up the trusty SL-1200 and sit and enjoy some jazz, or fusion, or 80's pop, or rock, or some 60's country, or modern MoFi pressing.

    Just here to say that everything Marv said and Palm said is actually factually correct. Most of it is already accepted my most main audiophiles in the know and hopefully most here at SBAF. All of it is analog, it lives, it breathes, and from a bygone era. The only thing is that most metal vinyl were cheaply mastered, meaning probably badly mastered, because the peaks and it was just either cut off at knees removing all the booming low end, or so limited, it sounded thin and weak with a very narrow groove making it quiet and thin.

    It is what it is. Enjoy it, don't enjoy it. Everyone has their reasons for getting into vinyl, but if you get in with a mentality that it is better than digital or streaming, you are sadly mistaken. (although it just might be better sounding than YouTube, IMHO)
     
  15. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    the peak of vinyl mastering and manufacturing was definitely not the mid to late 80's. more like the trough.

    can you please explain to the class how summing channels below 150hz affects playback

    yes, the recording and playback equipment has everything to do with what you get out of it, but on what basis do you think it's only equal to the CD in terms of fidelity? what does that really mean?

    Mofi releases consistently fatten up the sound and dull the leading edge to give a perception of smoothness. they are just another colored audiophile label who had their heyday in the 90s where the US audio scene saw some of its most egregious sounding components ever.

    your post is not really on topic with the discussion and made a bunch of sweeping generalizations that only serve to misinform people
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  16. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I was not referring to the quality or choice of music, just meaning in terms of technology with mastering and playback systems. Mid-fi was a good place to be in the 80's and some MCS gear (the stuff out of JCPenny and K-Mart) is still decent gear today.

    Sure. If too much low end happens on one channel and not the other, the needle can jump the groove. This is why vinyl cutting mastering engineers constantly look through a loop of the groove that is cut to identify any of this stuff and also maintain track width. Varible track width came about in the 70's and more popular in the 80's to allow for those peaks, but no process is perfect. Most of the time. The bass was summed mono just by sheer default pretty much. Stereo bass was just too risky for vinyl, I mean, if you wanted it to play loud.


    I mean by post from Marv and Palm. Palm was uber critical, but most of what he says is true. Not a perfect medium by any means. So much to overcome. The encoding EQ, cutting on the lathe, the many copies and plating that occurs, the pressing onto a warm vinyl puck, the stylus, to the cantilever, to the pickup in the cart, down the dainty wires, to the preamp and the decoding EQ, down some more wires to an amp. That is not even taken into consideration of the mechanics of the turntable or the arm and all the geometry involved with overhang distortion plots, VTA, VTF, styuls shape, boded or shank diamond, MC or MM, impedance loading, tonearm compliance...it really is a feat in physics to get the fidelity that is there.

    CD's are CD's. Digital information from a transport. We all know where this is going. Fidelity is more about the recording and the mastering anyway, not the final medium. A good cart or a good DAC cant' fix a bad recording. Tons of fidelity on CD though, you have to admit. Anyway...


    MoFi shut down vinyl mastering awhile back. They are the finest example of at least pop and rock vinyl mastering IMO. Rock and pop is colored music anyways.

    That's like, your opinion, man.
     
  17. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    dude your post is so full of misconceptions i dont even know where to begin. the topic of the thread is considerations of getting into vinyl and most posts were about practical considerations with posters offering anecdotal experiences. your post was about SteveHoffmanForums/Reddit-tier memes regarding the record industry

    the technology behind music recording and playback systems has been in gradual decline since the 1950s. prior to the 1960s, radio and hi-fi were the primary sources of electronic entertainment at home, R&D from big corporations reflected that. since then, the world has been in such a state of cultural erosion and the recording industry so bastardized by commercial interests that there was nowhere to go but down. im not sure what technological yardstick you're using, but theres a reason why all popular music from the 1980s sounds the same in aesthetic production value, and all popular music from before 1960 sounds wildly different depending on label and recording studio.

    WTF is stereo bass? you do realize that if playing back in stereo, both channels will be playing back LF information, even if <150hz is summed during production? you do realize that subsonic frequencies are perceived as omnidirectional in nature? you do realize that mixing, microphone placement and the ear-brain system all have way more of a role in the perception of spatial low frequency information?

    WTF is 'colored music'? you seem to have a very skewed perception of fidelity. music is comprised of emotional and aesthetic qualities. the artist, if they have a choice, and recording engineers sign off on a master with the aesthetics that best capture the emotion or message of their music. if you have some dude at an audiophile remastering label apply his own aesthetics to what he thinks the target audience of their $60 releases want, which is fatness and loss of transient information, i dont see how that is the finest example of 'pop and rock vinyl mastering'.

    the fact that the vinyl recording and playback system works despite the imperfections you mention is a credit to the brilliant engineers of the early 20th century, not an indicator of a lack of fidelity. it should not be a deterrent to anyone considering vinyl as a playback medium because your generalizations said so.
     
  18. JoshMorr

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    My recommendation for people looking to get a turntable is to go cheap, and see if they even like the process, can stand pops and clicks, have the patience for setup etc. Learn how to tweak, adjust, change parameters and how they effect sound. Any of the entry level mdf plinth tables will do, Uturn is the least expensive and probably easiest to sell off if vinyl isnt in your future, or you wholeheartedly decided vinyl is in your future and want to upgrade. Lots try it out and realize its just not for them. 5 years later, im still on my 2nd turntable, loving every record I play (well most).

    2m Red is a pretty awful cart in the grand scheme of things, but when I was very new and dumb, i touched the stylus and it broke off. The best part of 2m red is if you are a dummy, you can buy a 2m blue stylus for $150 and snap it into the red body.

    I would also recommend going external phono, and experiment with how it effects sound. TC750 is an awesome choice, as is the MoFi phono, Lounge LCR if you can swing a few more dollars. Look up old Analog Planet needle drops of Uturn Orbit vs Mani for a rough sense of tonal signatures of each.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  19. DEATHxMACHINE

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    That is just bs. 99% of everyone has started with crap audio. They grew up on the cheapest crap their parents would get them. You are assuming every vinyl noob is an idiot that has no idea what they are getting into. You are assuming they are baby. I am assuming they are a SBAF member that is not a dumbass and takes 10 mins of minimal research to get an idea of what it takes into vinyl. A vinyl noob is not a caveman.

    I have been absolutely consistent that vinyl is easy. I have not said it is better nor have I ever implied it. So I am not saying get into vinyl because it sounds better.

    Vinyl in it self is vintage. The person going into vinyl should know is it a vintage format that hasn't changed in 40 years. And its easy to get a good working used turntable if you are not a complete idiot. I did and I would have considered myself a noob when I got back into vinyl a few years ago. My prior experience was a cheap auto turntable that was replaced when I was 8 with a cd player (this was 1998). Sorry if I am way more confident than you.
     
  20. DEATHxMACHINE

    DEATHxMACHINE Friend

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    Thats why ebay has buyer protection. If I get burned on a ebay purchase when it shows up I send it back. It is not hard to read "refurbished" and "tested" and a sellers reputation. Most sellers are not going to screw you and will try to make it right because ebay selling is an additional source to their small business.
     

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