Denafrips R2R DAC

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by GanGreinke, Feb 1, 2017.

  1. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    Keep this up and you'll bag a boatful of dislikes. And since you seem unable to click on links and/or read, I'll put this here for you:
     
  2. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    If it's from hearing I'm surprised they picked up 2.5 and 3.0 dB drops at 21 kHz.

    If it's from measurements, I don't know why an actual plot backing up the claims was not included.

    I know an R2R will roll off the treble depending on the sampling rate selected. Dunno what sampling rates were used with these devices, but if they were not the same, then it was not an apples to apples comparison IMO.

    For faulty context
    • Nagra HD: "The expensive NAGRA DAC was a big disappointment since there was a low-level hum which was apparent as soon as it was hooked up"
    • Metrum Hex: "The Metrum HEX DAC had been fitted with an upgraded USB board. Refitting the old one made the music sound flat, so the cost was worth it"
    • Ares: "One of the ARES dacs supplied to a forum member in Jhb has a problem in that is loses connectivity to the MacMini to which it is connected. An email has been send to Vinshine asking for a solution. As a thumbsuck I'd blame it on the actual USB interface on the DAC. On most dacs this is a bolt-on part which can be swapped out"
    It's probably all they got. But hard to make final assessments with faulty equipment.

    It most have been through a conversion with jRiver. Based on what I'm reading, I'm not certain all DACs were feed the same stream. This makes this comparison a bit difficult to follow. Maybe some data points are valid, but it's not clear.

    I could be wrong, but I bet they didn't. My best guess is that it was a jRiver conversion and they just feed the PCM stream.

    It is very misleading since there is a SACD and a DSD column in which Yggdrasil was graded. And it puts in question the whole spreadsheet.

    My read on what @Marvey posted boils down to asking for your patience, to not take things too personally (literally), and to understand that sometimes we don't act in the most mature way.

    My read on what you posted boils down to mocking us as "scientific" reviewers, and telling us to go f**k ourselves (another more explicit way of saying "enjoy your little universe").

    Let's just forget about the "science" stuff. We support our points of view and claims with all kinds of data. Sometimes it's characterization, sometimes is giving things a go and hearing them, sometimes it's both. And that's that.

    This is not an IEEE journal, or a professional committee. This is a public forum where we talk random stuff about audio (and other stuff).

    Your evaluation is not with out merit. But it's got a few issues. It is what it is. I don't think it's junk, but it raises a lot of questions:
    1. Were all DACs feed the same type of stream? (if so, how was DSD and SACD managed on DACs that do not support it?).
    2. Is it accurate to say that not all DACs were in full working condition and that may compromise some of the findings?
    3. How was frequency response characterization done?
    4. Why were full resolution plots on graded metrics not provided? (distortion, noise floor, dynamic range).
    5. What were the bases for grading subjectives? (musicality, timbre, accuracy)
    Looking at your scores, Yggdrasil was dinged in the "44 kHz" test and in "Dynamic Range". That is very puzzling. Furthermore, it got a 7 on "Undue emphasis on certain frequencies". Was that a subjective or something you measured? If measured, that sounds like you either have a broken unit, or your measurement equipment is fucked up. That's not in agreement with multiple findings, both in this forum and outside (even Stereophile).

    Anyhow, IMO there are indeed many issues with your evaluation. You can tell us to f**k ourselves, which would be unproductive and a waste of time. Or you could tell some of the people here a little more about your observations, which may help in understanding them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Secret society. Shhhh...
     
  4. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. ChrisCPT

    ChrisCPT New

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    Hi forumites - just an apology for not reading and checking the protocols of this forum before posting. Just wanted to share the experience with Ares in a broader community of enthusiasts. I can see that this forum and its rules of engagement are important to members hence the abrasive responses from so many. Really sorry for tainting your sacred space with a personal opinion and the data from a casual testing session between friends on a Saturday morning. The posts had turned me onto an instant super audio best enemy but at least it elicited some responses from forum members and gave you all a bit of activity. Enjoy the music as I am sure you will agree that's what's it all about. Had to change my forum name (Chriswp to ChrisCpt to change my password which I seemed to have forgotten while on travels away from home).
     
  6. ilcg1

    ilcg1 Acquaintance

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    Received my Ares last week and so far like it better than my Modi Multibit. I use Tidal from my laptop at work --> Sigxer SU-1 --> coax to Denafrips Ares --> Jotunheim --> Fostex TH900. To me everything sounds more controlled and I get a little more micro-details.

    Has Alvin shipped you guys Ares for review yet?

    EDIT: if anyone in Toronto would like to listen to Ares we can arrange a mini meet.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  7. alvin1118

    alvin1118 MOT - VINSHINE AUDIO

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    Will be shipping this week to the first guy, for both Ares and Pontus :)
     
  8. wombat

    wombat New

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    I have been using an Ares for a couple of weeks now. It replaced a NAD M51. Compared to the NAD, the Ares sounds slightly darker. The Ares works well with the USB 2.0 driver that comes with the Creators Update of Windows 10. I cannot hear any difference in comparison to the supplied XMOS driver.
     
  9. gldgate

    gldgate New

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    Any initial reports on either Ares or Pontus?
     
  10. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    Both have been in burn-in since 20170707-0940 with music playing. Now at the 368 hr mark. My intention was to begin evaluation / measurements at the 200 hr mark. Unfortunately I was recruited into a 2 wk corporate sprint just prior to the 200 hr mark. Have that task under control now so beginning of measurements is imminent. Please remember the complexity of the measurement series requires not only careful setup and data acquisition but also data vetting to prevent any erroneous results being reported. A single set can take upwards of 8 hrs per device.

    Burn-in in progress:
    DSC_0008a.jpg
     
  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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  12. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    The Terminator looks like an incredibly well-equipped piece of gear. I really hope it can make its way onto your list at some point.
     
  13. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    It's entirely possible. We'll see how Ares and Pontus do first (both for us and for @alvin1118), before taking that further though.

    Though, as always, if you can arrange to put one in my hands then it's just a case of scheduling rather than "if" or "will I". And trust me, I know how much of a pain that can be!
     
  14. TinCanEar

    TinCanEar New

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    Reading the available review and hype made my will for getting a Gungnir Multibit to be shaken. :confused:
     
  15. dastereo.ru

    dastereo.ru New

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    ----------
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  16. Reggy

    Reggy New

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    Some people on Audiogon may be going a bit overboard on this aspect. But apparently some people are insisting that the stock power supply with the Ares "E55943LL41230 I-SHENG 10A 125V 27.00118.011-R Power Cable, IS-14 " is not very good. Personally, if I was the supplier I would have shipped a general one to reduce the overall costs of the product as well.

    Can anybody who has listened to the Ares comment on these claims, perhaps some of you have used a different power setup or borrowed from your other rig.

    The fact that the Terminator doesn't come with one may give a hint that the customer may want to have some selectivity.

    I personally think replacing a power cord with another won't make a difference, at least with the Ares, but if it does I'm open to that possibility.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  17. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I'd say they're largely nonsense.

    I use the same set of "audiophile" power cables for all the units in the review rig that can accept an IEC input. This includes the Ares. The review I posted was done using those cables, so that is reflective of its performance with an upgraded cable (in this case, the cable cost more than the Ares, as did the interconnects used).
     
  18. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    I remember this dac.

    I'd be far less worried about power cords and far more concerned with how the DAC paves over details, eg - it's akin to a drunken road crew laying asphalt on a country road.

    [​IMG]

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  19. Reggy

    Reggy New

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    I did some extensive research across the forums/internet, my consensus from an array of sources and actual legit customers is the power cable is possible to make a difference depending on your equipment from a generic stock one. So giving some middle ground, I purchased this one:

    Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable 3.0 Meter

    As for upgrading from that, the situation seems only subtle improvements with only the most expensive setups.

    It will be as simple as an ABX test, if I cannot tell the difference I will send back.
     
  20. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Sure cables can make a difference ... but it's largely nonsense when the claims are that its going to transform something's performance, or take it to the next effective tier in performance.

    When such changes are audible at all, the benefit is almost never worthwhile vs. just spending the same combined amount on a better component in the first place, at least until you get to very high-end gear.

    It's only a small step from there to people putting $1,000 USB-decrapifier chains, $400 LPS and $500 cables in front of $250 DACs ... and expecting the result to better a $2,000 DAC.

    Certainly putting a $1,000 power cable in front of the Ares didn't elevate it's performance above Modi MB (fed by a wall wart).
     

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