Drop x iFi ZEN DAC Signature Review and Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    Was there ever an official loaner for this? I did a quick search and couldn't find the thread if there was one.
     
  2. Friday

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  3. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    It's not official yet, though ZEN Signature devices were planned to eventually sell via our regular distribution pipeline.
     
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  4. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    This is available again on Drop, with the power supply.
     
  5. Friday

    Friday Friend

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    After the previous warehouse screwup, I'd prefer to buy it through other official retailers, if I do get it at all.
    @iFi audio will the free iPower be a Drop exclusive deal?
     
  6. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    I'd have to check how this will play out, but last time I checked there iPower X was on the table. Don't take my word for it for now, though. Once I know something, I'll provide info.
     
  7. EagleWings

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    iFi Zen DAC Signature - Impressions

    Picked up a Zen DAC Signature recently. Without a doubt, I like this more than the Modius. Modius slammed hard in the bass, had a large soundstage and had very good resolution, separation and imaging for a $200 DAC. But its biggest flaw was its midrange and some digitus in the treble. And in turn, the tone and timbre were quite off. Compared to the Modius, the Zen Dac Signature is a much more normal sounding DAC (in a good way). Here is a quick summary:

    - the tone falls on the warmer side
    - has good punch in the mid-bass
    - doesn’t have the deepest rumble in the sub-bass
    - the mids are full bodied and a touch warm
    - macrodynamics, microdynamics and texture are again normal
    - the treble has the right level of presence. Neither sharp nor overly smooth/dark. I do hear a slight digitus in the upper treble now and then
    - transients and attacks are on the slightly rounded side. This combined with the smooth-ish treble may come across as a laid-back DAC for some folks
    - the stage may be average in size and spaciousness, but has a bit of depth, so that it doesn’t come across as totally flat
    - resolution, separation and imaging are in line with what one might expect from a $250 DAC
    - not a detail oriented or a high resolution DAC

    This is a DAC I would easily recommend to anyone looking for a $250 DAC with good tone and timbre.

    May 2022 Update:
    Now that I have lived with the DAC for many months, with headphones, I find the digitus in the upper treble to fatigue me more often than, I had initially experienced. Also, while the tone in the mids is actually warm to neutral-warm, I feel the timbre lacks a bit of necessary organicness and realism. But it is still a fun DAC. Because the stage errs on the small-ish and forward-ish side, I tend to prefer this DAC with the HD800 than the HD650. On speakers, the upper treble digitus problem is less apparent and the overall tone sounds warm and full bodied. But still lacks that organicness, especially when you come back from a multibit DAC like a Bifrost2 or a PhiDeca DAC.

    IMG_E0428.jpeg
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  8. señorhifi

    señorhifi Friend

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    Did anybody else around here get to compare Signature to Non-Signature? What were your findings?
     
  9. likearake

    likearake Acquaintance

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    I think Vtory compared them earlier on and said it was a significant difference. I remember this because I bought one after.

    I've got both now and would agree it is a significant difference. I don't have the terminology to describe it, but the non-signature seems to be significantly less detailed and, maybe due to this, sounds congested and imparts a strange metallic timbre to everything. It makes me feel like I am listening to a stereo in a small metal box. The signature has a similar warm-ish sound but I think the increased details allow for better spatial cues and timbre. EagleWings post above is pretty spot on in terms of describing how it sounds on its own.

    I'm definitely exaggerating the difference but the non-sig is not something i could live with even in my modest setup (MCTH -> modded HD650 / Hemp) whereas the signature I've been listening to for the last year, after downgrading from a Gungnir Multibit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
  10. señorhifi

    señorhifi Friend

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    Thanks for the extra impressions. I also had the non sig a while ago, and prefered the Modi3 over it. I agree that it's timbre was off (warmish one-noteish bass + too much digitus in the treble for my taste). I will look into picking a Sig version up now, and compare them for myself here :)
     
  11. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    Many people who compared the two versions agree that the Signature version is noticeably better. Some say it's a bit quicker and more open, so it might be more up your alley :)
     
  12. señorhifi

    señorhifi Friend

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    Alright, I got a Zen Sig myself. Prime shipped 24h for 270€ (what a bargain in EU!). Modius would have cost me 330-350€ + long shipping times.

    Overall it sounds engaging, not boring at all, with great midbass, mostly smooth treble, really good speed, some depth, and in general, simply more "Hi-Fi" than Modi 3, standard Zen Dac, Modi MM V2, and the other stuff I owned, which is the Teac UD301, and the DacMagic Plus.

    I am in disbelief it is THIS good. I was expecting a slight upgrade from the regular Zen DAC, but this should be considered a different DAC altogether (although some sound similarities are still present).

    Just some early impressions using Zen Sig ->RCA->Jot2 SE In->SE Out->KISSHD650. All compared to Modi 3 (gonna call it M3) and regular Zen Dac (hereby ZD).

    - So so subbass reproduction, somewhat more textured than M3 and ZD, but nothing amazing. It's totally fine, no dealbreakers here, but maybe the Modius might be better for this.

    - Incredible midbass reproduction. So taunt, so quick, so impactful. Huge step up from M3, and an even bigger step up from ZD. This is so much better on this DAC that it's the first thing I noticed. Drums sound thunderous compared to M3 and ZD. Addicting!

    - Midrange is interesting. It's not as emphasized as on M3, but a bit more present than on ZD. Sounds warm, but not as compressed, maybe mushy as on the M3. Also, not as recessed and hollow as on ZD. About the right presence, but I think I like more midrange emphasis like on M3.

    - Treble, again, just like the midbass, it's so nicely done. I guess it's as natural as possible for a DS DAC. Not too sharp and artificial (ZD), and not as AKM VelvetSoundTM smooth (M3). Big points for Zen Signature here!

    - Instrument separation shines compared to ZD and especially M3. M3 always sounded mushy and boring to me in this aspect. The Zen DAC Signature has significantly better instrument separation/speed. This is one of the biggest things, alongside the midbass and treble, that make it such a big step up from M3 and ZD. Big points here for the Zen DAC Signature. Really makes it sound more high end than either the M3 or ZD.

    - Soundstage width is the same as on ZD. It's narrower than the one of the M3 by quite a bit. Almost sounds in your head at times. Still, some width is present. EDIT: tried the BAL output and the small soundstage improved significantly. There is more space and especially depth to the presentation now. If possible, please use the Zen DAC Signature's BAL output.

    - Soundstage depth though is a step up from M3 and ZD. There is some front to back layering going on, which makes it sound compact but 3D. I in particular prefer this to a wide, diffuse and depthless presentation, but YMMV.

    - Slam, well, it slams your socks off. Again a step up from M3 and ZD.

    - Detail retrieval is slightly worse than the one of the M3, but only in the midrange. Bass and treble both sound more natural and better defined. The instrument separation of this DAC makes it also way easier to hear new things in my music. Should I listen to "dude with guitar" type of music, the M3 is actually more nuanced, but mix another guy into the song, and now the Zen Sig will outshine the M3, which is easily overwhelmed with many instruments. Oh and compared to ZD, yeah, that one sucked in terms of detail retrieval overall. This is a step up from that for sure.

    Hope this helps somebody out there. For EU based people I recommend skipping on Modi3 (and especially on the regular Zen DAC, which IMO is very meh and annoying sounding), and just buying this instead. Worth every penny.

    It's happy pyrate times with Zen Sig ARGHHH!!!

    :sail:|{:sail:|{:sail:
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2022
  13. señorhifi

    señorhifi Friend

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    With all of that said, I don't wanna overhype it. VS the regular Zen DAC it's infinitely better (I shipped the regular Zen DAC back to Amazon after 2-3 days), but I can see how somebody might like the Modi3 over this. Yes Zen Sig is better overall, but the midbass emphasis and normal sounding treble, might come off as fatiguing in the long run. IMO Modi3 still shines in less busy, midrange focused music. It's also great to sit back and relax to your favorite albums for hours on end. It just never gets fatiguing, but leaves a lot of stuff behind, especially in the bass and treble.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
  14. TamHo

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    I don’t like the timbre on the M3. Both the M3 and the modi multibit sound shouty and lack of subtlety to my ears. Especially the multibit version that severely lacks of detail and is compressed. Bought the Zen dac sig and liked it very much so that I bought some British amps for my headphones haha I am just sad that Ifi released the new Zen dac sig v2 right after my buying..
     
  15. señorhifi

    señorhifi Friend

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    I am probably just really attached to the Modi3 and Modi MM. I have been listening to those for like 1 or 1.5 years at this point. I remember my friend calling the Modi3 an inverted V shape signature: lots of mids, no bass and treble. I personally call it "polite" :D.

    That's probably why I am getting fatigued by the Zen Sig right now, something that everybody here called rather laid back. I agree, it's rather laid back, just not as much as Modi3. I am just getting used to the new sound right now, which goes to show how good the Zen Sig actually is. I am willing to change my mind on the Modi3 and basically learn to listen to something new, because it's just so much more capable! Man, what a step up!
     
  16. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I currently have the Modi 3 feeding a Zen Can and the micro iDSD Black Label in another setup. I am considered having only one headphone setup. Would the ZEN DAC Signature and Zen Can outperform the the IDSD BL?
     
  17. Noodlz

    Noodlz Almost "Made"

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    Just recently got a bunch of DACs as a part of my hunt to upgrade my solid state DAC. This is essentially my impressions / comparison of the following DACs:
    • IFI Zen DAC Signature
    • IFI Nano BL
    • Modius (SE & Bal outs)
    • Soekris 1321 w/ custom filters
    • Sonic Frontiers SFD-1 mk2 (Mazda tubes)
    • 4490 Dac card on Jot2

    Even though theres a bunch of different DACs in my comparison, the one I was most curious was the zen dac so I figured this as a good as a place to put my train of thoughts. (Please let me know if this post should be moved else where)

    ** Disclaimer: my findings may be biased based on my sonic preferences & setup, plus i describe things sometimes oddly like gourmand style, with flavors and tastes and colors etc. so YMMV. Oh also these are preliminary impressions after having the DACs for a few days, opinions may change as time goes on.

    • Source
      • Pi2AES running Moode and Roon bridge
        • > Zen Sig | Soekris 1321 | modius
      • PiZero running picoreplayer, powered by battery, usb out to:
        • > ifi Nano BL (running on battery mode. makes a huge difference)
        • > Ifi Zen Signature
    • Amps
      • Jot2 (on for months)
      • MCTH + ‘57 western electric 2C51 JW tube
    • Dacs
      • “Best” Dac to compare against
        • SFD with fully burned in Mazda tubes. Left on for 3+ days
      • “Worst” DAC to compare against
        • 4490 on Jot2
      • Comparing:
        • If Nano BL on battery mode
        • Zen Sig - using stock Ifi power
        • Soekris 1321 - custom filters (esp EQHQ and no filter). Vol set to -01db , SPDIF in
        • Modius - input via AES; powered by usb to power plug
          • Been on for months. Occasional turn offs but no more than 10 each.
    • Power
      • All are powered from Tripplite, except for Modius. USB out to furman power conditioner
    • Headphones used:
      • LCD2.1 rev1 - balanced cables + Brainwavz Hybrid Elite pads
      • HD6XX kiss modded

    Quick Initial Impressions (day 1-2) - warm up and all.
    • Control Group (best and worst) - on Jot2.
      • SFD is leagues above all. More organic and engaging
      • 4490 is serviceable. Nice if I don't compare, but once i do i realize how thin / tinny / sharp they sound in comparison. Sound stage is still decent and fairly engaging.
    • Zen Sig - Punchy, smooth, colored, a bit more liquid. For some reason the nano is more liquid still. The zen sig does already have more nuances. Might need some more time to run through
    • Soekris 1321 - very very engaging and musical. Especially the EQHQ. Slightly rough sounding compared to the others. Very natural though. Needs more time.
    • Modius SE is fairly smooth, neutral, but not all that engaging. Boring in comparison. I may get rid of this things.
    • Modius BAL - did not test this. SFD was hooked up as the XLR to the Jot
    • Nano BL - Sweet and juice. Lower fidelity compared to the rest, but much and punch especially the bass lines are nice.


    Day 3 - in depth testing and comparison. Jot 2 & MCTH combos

    Jot 2 + DAC pairings
    • Modius Realizations
      • XLR out from Modius instead of SE to Jot2
        • Wow. Significantly better. Actually smoother now and no glare surprisingly (compared to SE)
        • Way more natural and wider / a bit taller stage, more precise and detailed. But way more listenable than SE out for some reason.
        • Actually somewhat liquid now too.
        • TLRD; use the XLR for clarity depth, removing the smear (or warmth depending how you see it)
        • NOTE: after a while though, can still feel fatiguing. So not quite smooth enough? Will need to play some more
          • … it could also be the Jot.
      • SE - way smaller stage, smeared. Not bad but not great. Worst of the bunch by a decent distance.
    • Soekris DAC1 321
      • No filter
        • Smoother with no filter but less engaging
        • Also a bit more muddled / smeared compared to the modius XLR (no filter)
      • EQHQ
        • Nice. But still has a bit of rough edges glare when compared (even against the Modius XLR now).
        • Crisp and engaging, but again, harder “carved” sounds compared to the silkier smoothness of the modius XLR.
          • The music itself is organic and natural but it feels like everything has this carved-stone impression across. Imagine moving your hand through a well carved statue that’s been weathered smooth. It’s smooth but still “hard”.
        • It is more engaging than modius SE though. And maybe even more engaging than the XLR.
        • Very very musical
      • Probably needs more days to warm up
    • Nano
      • Still nice. Sweet sounds. Full range and punchy
      • Just doesn't have the stage, detail retrieval, or soundstage. But really quite nice
      • Bass is nice. Rollin and punchy. Love how rumbly it is.
      • Surprising seems to sound a bit better than Zen?
    • Ifi Zen Signature
      • Drier than Nano, but not dry. Just normal. Neutral but with hints of color, and maybe a bit of silver springs fluidness.
      • Nice bass too, but not quite as rich / boomy as the the nano
      • Way more details tho
      • but not (quite a bit away) as detailed and more congested compared to the modius XLR
      • Not as well textured. Everything is colored & smoothed over a bit. A bit of bloom. Just a tiny bit though, not like a full tube experience, not exactly solid state either.
      • Not as engaging as the Soekris1321. Nor as smooth, or as textured. Has a touch more punch and more rumble when compared.
      • Needs more time?


    MCTH LCD + DAC Pairings
    • Nano + MCTH + LCD is still amazing.
      • Rich and sweet and tasty.
      • Not the most resolving but caramel sweetness is very nice
      • Has a very flavored personality in this combo
        • Full of flavor. Sweet, Lush, caramel glistening goodness.
    • Soekris 1321 & MCTH + LCD is really nice (EQHQ filter)
      • More detailed than nano. Better stage, better timbre, smooth without being too smoothed out or colored
      • Not sweet and liquidy tho. Still great bass. Actually bass has more textures. Nice and punchy still
    • Modius SE
      • Rough, smothered, and grainy in comparison. Feels very digital compared the smoother, more musical sounds of the 1321 and nano combos.
      • Sounds technically correct but boring and not quite resolving. Also not engaging enough when compared. Like its all there and crisp and clean, but sorta like sparkle leaning pair of monitors (i.e. dynaudio BM5A), its sorta clinical and slightly digital sharp.
      • Really needs the XLR out. Probably will not use this at all with the MCTH, not a good combo for me.
      • Will be looking for an XLR to SE converter if i decide to keep the modius.
    • Zen Sig
      • VERY smooth. A very nice easy going sound. The texture is all there too.
      • Doesn't have the sweetness caramel flavor of the nano, but is just slightly
      • Smoother sounding than the soekris, which still has this “hard carving” sound across everything right now, hopefully that’ll settle with time.
      • Also has a bit more air & “trailing” sounds than both the soekris 1321 and nano.

    Overall initial assessment:
    • Compared to SFD, SFD is still way up there, but modius XLR is #2
    • Crappy Spider Chart for ref (Tastiness is a personal preference thing. like how sweet or rich is it vs something boring and neutral. or rather, do I taste the music when I hear it?)
    [​IMG]

    Current thoughts on the Zen Sig:

    • Very enjoyable listen, but
      • not quite as gripping / engaging as the soekris
      • Not as punchy / fun / flavored as the nano
      • I’d imagine someone looking for something closer to neutral but not clinical would really like this.
      • I like it more the the Modius SE overall, but it falls a bit short when it comes to fun or engagement comparing to the the soekris (even with the warming up issues) and much cheaper ifi Nano BL.

    I thought it was the ifi house sound i was chasing when i discovered the synergy between the ifi Nano BL + MCTH + LCD, but looks like its not quite it.

    That being said, will likely keep the Zen Sig around for a bit and maybe I’ll get accustomed to the sound, or maybe it’ll synergize better with the Liquid Gold X whenever i get to listen to it. For now I think my main solid state DAC will remain as the modius XLR.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
  18. señorhifi

    señorhifi Friend

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    @Noodlz I hope you don't mind a bunch of questions. If you compare the treble fatigue of the Zen Sig Vs Modius BAL, which one would you say is worse? Also, what do you think about soundstage depth when comparing these two DACs?
     
  19. Noodlz

    Noodlz Almost "Made"

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    Oh sure thing. Actually the zen sig is probably the smoothest of the bunch second only to the SFD. the modius xlr even though is very smooth theres still that very slight hint of of glare that I’ve only noticed after listening for a while. The zen sig just has a this very smooth detailed presentation, which is actually really great but it isn’t flavored like the other dacs. (It has just a touch of flavor while being in the middle for kinda everything)

    Which I think may be exactly what some people want. I may come to love it too, but probably need more time to get adjusted. I think I may be biased since I was really looking for a stepped up version of the nano BL so I can maintain its flavor and synergy, but the zen is a bit different, actually better in a bunch of ways just not fitting what Im looking for right this minute.

    oh and soundstage depth the modius balanced feels more expansive, but the zen dac isn’t far behind. Both feel like you get plenty of “air”, the modius xlr feels like the air is more “clear”and the zen sig is more sky blue, if that makes any sense.
     
  20. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    All good, your post fits in here rather well considering its contents ;)

    ...and thanks a lot for your feedback. It's quite interesting how much love our nano iDSD BL got from you and it's always cool seeing our older products still in use!
     

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