Drop x Sennheiser HD8XX (final tuning)

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Marvey, Jul 20, 2021.

  1. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Boy @loadexfa nailed it here and wrote my review for me. My chain is similar but different: Roon> Pi2AES via AES > Yggdrasil A2 > Starlett. I experimented with quality digital EQ to bring up that mid scope, but any more than 2 or 3 db (which is not enough) and sibilance/distortion becomes exaggerated. The 8XX stage was certainly nice (as was the comfort), particularly for music (such as string quartets) that is not too busy, but did not make up for it's weakness which included something fundamentally off - "plasticy" is as good a word as any - with the timbre. Perhaps this headphone just does not synergize with DNA amps.

    The OG Clear (mine is modded with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads to warm it up a bit), has a more natural FR, resolves and details better, separates better but does not stage as well. I really wanted to like the 8XX more, because like ZMF offerings my big old ears find all the room they need in them unlike the Focals. Oh well, YMMV, etc. etc...
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Thanks for reporting back. I didn't have the HD8XX long enough to test out EQ. I was hoping that someone would try EQ to see if this approach worked better. (We all know how a EQ cut with the HD800S doesn't really work, so the thought was maybe an EQ boost with the HD8XX work would better. It doesn't seem like it. Boost or cut, it would seem that we end up where we started from.

    Did @ChaChaRealSmooth report back in this thread? I think he ordered or borrowed one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2021
  3. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Yep, similar to the Verite the mid scope does not seem amenable to an EQ mitigation. Purr1n knows this but to be clear I did this right in that the "boost" was done by bringing bringing down global level to just below target boost in the mids to avoid digital clipping, as well as starting small and with broad Q, etc. As Hands and others have pointed out the scooped mids of HP designs that place the driver further back from the ear is not really fixable with EQ or other mods.
     
  4. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    Yes.

    On the topic of EQ, I concur that EQ doesn't work well on the HD8XX. Forgot if I mentioned that in my review.
     
  5. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

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    HD 8XXX Loaner Impressions

    Chain: Roon - Pi2AES - Audiobyte Vox - Burson Soloist GT & Amp & Sound Kenzie Encore
    • U or V shaped curve, mid suck out
    • Great bass extension but some mid bleeding
    • Slams and does dance or bass music well
    • Tames the brightness of 800s & 800 but can sound muddy
    • Great soundstage and fit
    • Sounded decent out of Audiobyte dac amp but nothing else really
    Closing comments:
    They went overboard with the tuning and made it too muddy. The mid suckout was pretty noticeable, since I don't eq or like V-shaped headphones for 1k - I honestly didn't like them too much.
     
  6. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    I have not heard HD8XX but I am reading through this thread and one thing is not clear to me.
    HD6XX is so successful because it is essentially HD650. I have HD800S but I would love to but original HD800 for less.
    So why not just copy HD800 and sell tons of them? Just like HD6XX. What happened?
     
  7. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    I always thought the problem was that people don't really like the HD800. Not in the same way that people like the HD650, anyway.

    Disclaimer: never heard any of the HD8xx series, but I've always been bemused by reading about them. I don't think there's another flagship phone that people more vigorously mod, tweak, and cycle through amps/sources just to make them sound how they want.
     
  8. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Purely speculation.

    1. Used 800 was already dirty cheap and very frequently shown. I don't think matching new price at the level of used 800 (600-800 usd) easy. On the contrary used prices of 650 wasn't too far from 650 street prices if I recall correctly.
    2. Due to #1, many already tried out 800 at some point of their audiophile journey. And the position might be very firm. I agree with @Beefy
    3. Most of something-XX products came with Drop-original modification to any extent. I'd rather think 6xx an exception (I was indeed lightly disappointed for the very reason).

    So I am basically thinking targeting 800 haters per se would not be a bad strategy. But tuning seems to come with more sacrifices than most people can bear without doing something additional. Still dying to get my hands on. The more I read this thread, The more optimistic I am thinking to develop filters to turn them lovable to me.
     
  9. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    And let's not ignore price. A complete noob can buy a HD6XX and their journey is complete. A seasoned audiophile can have one as a reference. Such an easy default recommendation. Jumping up to several hundred dollars for the HD8XX dramatically shrinks the market.
     
  10. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Now I understand even less. Drop created HD8XX for people who really do not like HD800?. Then it was even worse idea than I thought. Because I think that the only reason to create a headphone Drop HPxXX is to build on the reputation of the original.
     
  11. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I don't disagree with you much. They generally did use reputation and most components. But except for 6xx and a few simple group buys, the originals of most drop studio products were all with major or minor shortcomings that can be a deal breaker to many. Elex (originated from Elear), 4xx (from he400), 7xx (from k701or 2), and maybe some x-version of DCA headphones, too. For all these examples, I don't like the original ones at all, but enjoyed drop versions eventually. 8xx might be more bipolarizing than any of those tho.

    What I meant (beefy too perhaps) was not to target those who can simply and straightly buy/enjoy 800(+s). It's one business choice that Drop can take.
     
  12. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    I guess I just mean that the HD8-- series isn't 'beloved' in the same way the HD6-- series is. A different tuning - or even the original! - at a thousand-ish dollar price-point is never going to be a smash hit for Drop in the same way that the HD6XX has been.

    And I can't see why Sennheiser would want to start offering HD8-- of any flavor through Drop at a super-discount-rate either. The HD6XX pricing is surely so low to help grow the market and brand recognition, with the HD8-- sales being the profit margin.
     
  13. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    The reputation of the original is that it sounds like shit, despite its technical prowess, and needs mods plus a highly synergistic setup to be listenable.

    You want to build on a foundation of shit?
     
  14. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    No matter the difference of opinion how HD800 sound, isn't it exactly what they did? They started with, your opinion, shit, that would be weird enough, and with "great skills" turned it into something entirely uninteresting?

    And isn't SBAF all about mods and synergistic setup?
     
  15. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Has anybody tried throwing some electrical tape on the baffles of HD800/s a la HD8XX to see if it fucks up the sound similarly to how HD8XX sound? Shit, I think I've got a project for tomorrow.
     
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  16. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    Been listening to one of the loaners since last night. This is my first experience with an HD8.. so I have no comparisons to the other models.

    I won't bother with chain details or other nuances because I can't imagine any source/amp/whatever fixing these.

    Long story short, the dip in the mids makes them unlistenable. When Freddy Mercury sounds anemic, something has gone terribly awry. It's like he's at the bottom of a shaft. It puts the lotion on the skin indeed....

    The net effect is a constant need to turn up the volume in order to hear vocals which results in the upper mids/lower treble becoming extremely fatiguing very quickly. I see no use in describing other attributes.

    I don't like being so negative because I appreciate Drop giving us some cans to play with but, I can't fathom why someone actually thought these things are a good idea.

    The only potential saving grace I can think of is EQing but it's not my cup of tea so I haven't tried it.

    I suppose listening to music without vocals would be fine but I still don't understand why you'd want to hear your music in such an altered way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
  17. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    I spent a few hours with the other loaner unit this week. I owned the HD800 5+ years ago and did the SDR mod to them back then. Used Yggdrasil Analog 1 and Valhalla 2 at the time. In 2016, I compared directly my HD800SDR to the Focal Utopia and vastly preferred the latter, so picked those up and sold off the HD800SDR.

    My system has changed since then. I now run an Yggdrasil Analog 2 and a Schiit Ragnarok (v1.5 board). For the loaner comparisons, both headphones were used with XLR cables. Qobuz --> Pi2AES + RPi 3b+ --> Mogami AES cable. Other system info in my profile.
    • Gain Settings: I typically use low gain on the Ragnarok on the Utopia. Anything else is too aggressive for me, despite losing a bit of bass punch and "excitement" up top that I get on mid gain. With HD8XX, low gain made them sound a bit flat and muffled and not very dynamic. On the mid gain, they opened up a bit with more treble presence and bass punch, and better depth. I used midgain with the HD8XX for my impressions below.
    • Comfort: I have very fond memories of my HD800SDR from a comfort perspective. I would use them watching TV/movies for hours in my living room system at night. This time, they didn't feel as comfortable as I remember. They felt a bit smaller, which doesn't really make sense as I think the cups and such are the same size. Maybe my ears have grown.
    • Sound Impressions:
      • Acoustic/Folk: I think the HD8XX does well with simple acoustic and folk music. Sounds nicely layered and detailed, and the driver doesn't get overwhelmed. Taylor Swift - Evermore sounded pretty good. I had a similar impression listening to the HD800S at a dealer last year.
      • Rock:
        • When I listened to some Blink-182 (Enema of the State), the cymbals sounded like complete garbage and the headphones sounded flat and had no punch. The Utopia in comparison had bass weight and kick (even in low gain mode), cymbals sounded more natural and real (not a hazy mess), and much more dynamic. My notes here say that the Utopia sounds more like a window to the music, whereas the HD8XX sounded more like a window to the mix. I get it's not a great recording, but if I can't enjoy music I like then I don't want the gear.
        • I listened to the entire Blink album on the Utopia without realizing it until the last song or two. I then immediately switched back to the HD8XX. It sounded like I was listening to music in a tin can. Just awful.
      • Classical:
        • After a short reset, I tried some classical. Just picked a random new classical release on Qobuz with strings, harpsichord and bells. It sounded fine, pleasant, etc. I didn't hate listening to classical on these like I did on the Focal Elear (with their awful midrange dip), which surprised me after reading some of the impressions in this thread.
        • Switching to the Utopia it was even more apparent just how superior the Utopia is, even on an amp that's not optimal for it. Strings sounded much more present, clear and detailed. The music could breathe more and felt fresh. And the bells and related overtones in the recorded space sounded amazing, like an actual bell vs. just a recording of a bell through the comparatively muffled HD8XX.
    • Conclusions:
      • Utopia >>> HD800SDR (and by extension HD800S I assume) >>>>>> HD8XX.
      • I had no desire to listen to the HD8XX anymore after the first night, even during the first night (as I stated above I listened to an entire album with Utopia before remembering I needed to compare...). I will not be buying one of these, but am still interested in trying an HD800SDR again or an HD800S for late night movie/TV watching.
    Thanks for arranging the loaner!
     
  18. wadec22

    wadec22 Almost "Made"

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    I was really excited to try the 8XX and had the loaner in-hand for the full 5 days. Thank you so much to Drop for providing the loaner opportunity and to @rhythmdevils for coordinating. These take time to deal with all the pm's and logistics. Very much appreciated. I apologize, I am about a week late in posting my impressions. FWIW, here they are.

    My Ears and Tastes
    • I am super-sensitive to 6k peaks.
    • I prefer a slightly warm take on neutral and have enjoyed the hell out of this past year's releases with the Clear MG and LCD-X 2021 version being two of my favorite headphones. I don't usually chase new, but got lucky this year I suppose.
    800 series prior experience:
    I was very excited to try these. I have owned both the 800 and 800s a couple times each. The 800 had the best imaging I have experienced but I could only stomach the treble for about 15 minutes. After SDR mod, I could handle them for 45m to an hour. The HD800S I found mitigated the treble issues I had but the imaging had gone from S tier in the un-modded, A tier in the SDR and B tier in the HD800S. I could wear them all day but they were not as magical. All three cases had the unbelievable sound stage. All three left me wanting in the bass area a bit in one way or another.

    Testing Gear
    I tested the 8XX on with the MOTU ultralite mk4 ->887 THX and the mini-i3 pro->Bottle Head Crack with speedball. I took measurements on the mini-DSP EARS but given how many rigs we have now seen it on, I am not sure posting mine serves any purpose (although I certainly will upon request).

    Aesthetics/Build
    • Might as well be a HD800S - really pleased there was no hint of $ saving on the build all
    • I really wish they hadn't done the navy - but whatever, they want that to be their thing so I get the branding. In dim or warm lighting, you'll never know it's not black anyway.
    • An opportunity was missed in not ditching the horrendous connectors, but I get that as well, as it probably would have added to the cost to mess with the chassis design.
    • I have a tall head shape, so extending the size to max is a requirement for me and it creates a set of crab pincers on the top of my neck/behind and beneath my ear. I have always hated this, but they are light weight and having owned the other versions, I know it goes away with proper break-in.
    • I'm glad they give the same cable, I like the Sennheiser stock cable. It is a quality cable. I know some find it too long but I use the routing in my setup. I know some have had fraying issues, but that would not be a concern in my setup. This was a potential place to cut the budget and they didn't.

    Sound
    • I am going to be in the minority here, I find these fun as hell. It is an obvious V-shape tuning. Sound stage is immersive and diffuse. Imaging is now below average.
    • The BHC tube amp provided a slightly more approachable experience but isn't required in any shape or form for me.
    • I think if you listen to modern, mainstream pop-artists, rap, EDM, modern country.... top 40 or trending Tidal stations - you will really like these.
    • If you have a taste for more refined genres, you will be disappointed with the mid suck out and probably don't want any v-shaped headphone.
    • I think these are way more fun for movies and single player gaming than the previous 800 series sets that are borderline boring for both.
    • Competitive gaming is horrible with these. The sound stage is just as diffuse and impressive as prior versions but the imaging is below average.
    IMHO - in the past if you recommended the HD800S to a friend/casual listener who wanted to step up to "high end" headphones, they would likely come away disappointed, most notably in the lack of bass. Here I think that same buyer comes away really pleased with their purchase.

    I thought about buying a pair, I enjoy them enough to own them. Honestly, I won't be buying a pair but that is due to the sub par imaging. Clearly my taste profile is more of an outlier. It's fun to read everyone's impressions and start to build that library of users to triangulate your probable likes/dislikes off of so you don't have to buy and try everything.

    Thanks again for allowing so many of us to participate!
     
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  19. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    [​IMG]

    HD8XX Loaner Impression: Part 1

    I finally got my hands on the HD8XX. There are already tons of criticism in this thread. Unfortunately, my initial response wasn't too different in that the infamous suck out critically dragged 8xx's potential. Amplitude-independent technicality (speed, detail, resol, etc) should be unaffected by theory, but our (at least my) perception is subject to tonal balances anyway. I honestly expected a little better at least.. but 8xx as is wasn't a generalist I could appreciate.

    This motivated me to mess with equalizers immediately. In this post, I'd like to describe how I tackled tonality correction of 8xx. With the right personalized tuning, 8xx metamorphoses to a Super Sennheiser. But finding out the right parameters need a good amount of trials and errors to match to individual preferences, rather than done by graphs or c&p from someone else's values.

    Because of the convenience and degree of freedom, I will assume to use parametric equalizers (PEQ). Here are general steps of developing a filter in PEQ.
    1. Identify a specific frequency or a group/range of frequencies that are problematic.
    2. Determine filter types: Peak (dip) and Shelf are frequently used.
    3. Determine center frequency.
    4. Determine Q factor.
    5. Determine gain.
    Needless to say, #1 is the most critical and I seriously recommend to do all these steps by your own ears discarding any previous measurements taken by someone else. This is because different ear shapes or dimension usually create different results particularly in the upper frequencies (2khz upward in general). Unless you exactly understand frequency shifting degrees between the measurement rig and YOUR ears, measurements do more harm than good leading to false center frequencies. You can still make use of measurements in optimizing or verifying parameters.. but only if you do own very familiar measurement rigs yourself.

    That said, I calibrated 8xx for the following orders and thought process.
    • Apart from very obvious suck out, I also noticed the rolled off bass. The sound was a little lower-mid centric, too.
      • Lowering upper bass to middle midrange seems to help, which is relatively boosting bass and upper midrange. That's why I started from this filter rather than Filters 2/3 below.
      • Applied -3db gain with Q=0.1 (because the range in question was wide) with several different central frequencies in the range above. 390 hz worked the best.
      • Then I tuned gain and Q. After a few backs and forths, I settled down with Q=0.2, Gain=-5(db)
      • This completed the first filter (Filter 1).
    • With Filter 1 activated, the bass sounded great but the suck out still remained (somewhat improved tho).
      • 1 to 3 khz range sounded too muted.
      • Single positive gain peak filter was tested, but I was not happy with the results.
      • Alternatively, it did sound better when I had two filters at 1.5khz and 2.4khz with moderate overlaps (Q=3 for each).
      • I ended up with the gains of +4 and +3 respectively.
      • These eliminated the suck out problem. Filters 2 and 3 done.
    • Filters 1-3 corrected 8xx's initial issues significantly, but the overall treble was a little too shouty and bright for my taste. I wanted to make them darker.
      • As this was about general treble level rather than locally defined problems, I decided to use a shelf filter.
      • HS filter at 3.5khz with -5db gain worked the best for me. Filter 4 done.
    • Finally I wanted to lower the brightness level a bit. I knew adding narrow dips on 9-10 khz does this magic to me.
      • Filter 5 was determined at 9.4khz with -3db gain and Q=7.
    Please note that actual development processes were way more iterative requiring tons of recalibrations. For example, I had to revisit Filters 1 and 3 multiple times while tuning Filter 4. Graphical tools showing overall and per-filter effects are very helpful.

    Again, all these values were specifically fitted with my ears, perception, and taste, not to mention they're also open to further changes as I listen to more tracks in the evaluation. They were presented only to give readers a realistic sense of parameters. You can replicate my approaches. But using my values as are might be ineffective at best or even make things annoying at worst.

    Ok, how do they sound then? Shortly, with all these calibrations, 8xx is holy-shit awesome. They exhibit 800's technical capabilities in the right tonality (a little neutral dark overall) and holographic presentation. Easily the best sounding Senn headphones I've ever experienced. I have never achieved this level of performance through either 6x0 or 800 (stock, sdr, S all included) even with any eqs I tested. More on later posts. Will definitely follow up with detailed subjective evaluation.

    Measurements for raw and equalized responses to come as well.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  20. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    Any thought to creating an Equalizer APO configuration file people could download with these settings? I'd do it using your info but probably be better if the master made it for everyone's confidence.
     

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