Dynamic drivers vs Planars ( Hifiman) Differences?

Ok, I feel sorry that I completely expressed the information with the wrong way, because English is not my first language. Therefore we talked about completely wrong topic of the discussion. What you have said I totally agree, I always feel that way, and I discussed the same thing with Vtory once.

 

It would be illuminating to see a KMS curve for a good planar headphone driver, or to dyn headphone driver, as I have not seen that either.
If it indeed is very nonlinear for planar (I have not seen a spider or other real suspension) - it might explain the weirdness I hear in their dynamic behaviour - in that their dynamic scale tends to compress towards loudness and the top end of dynamics to be compressed.
The motor structure is another equally determining factor, the mag field I'd expect to be less uniform for planar.

This one is not easy to argue, as people have some variance in how 'slam' is defined.
Speakers that do slam is different to how dynamic hp do it and how planar mag hp do it.
Planars have cleaner transient rise, more weight and speed to it subjectively, but then the envelope dies off abruptly.
If pitted against each other from the champions I think one would find equal share of followers, except speakers - most agree great speakers kill any hp in slam.

 

You sound like you are generalizing planars again. I am starting to feel like I am wasting my time when you make blanket statements like this.

 

The odd treble I'll just attribute to weird breakup behavior but the compression I feel like isn't lack of linearity but air damping of sorts? Hifiman had a video where they proudly presented their ultrathin membrane floating in the air for a good minute or two. I see the companies say thinner diaphragms are better for acceleration but with the pretty well sealed front chamber and uber lightweight membranes I wonder if it works like air drag/air compression that causes them to stop and bounce back to zero a bit early. Probably why I have always preferred at least perforated pads. For bass it's less annoying to me than dynamics which sound like they're trying too hard and going to actually pop out but different subjective camps.

 

Oops, forgot about that all together - add this as third factor. I bet all of these play their part.

Still on topic of slam? Of all descriptions for slam the ones including highs are the most complex.
I do not disagree, macrodynamics matter in highs just as much as in lows.
Thing is, with most transducer systems high frequency macro dynamics are not the bottleneck. It is usually the bass lagging behind, because it takes the most effort.
Percussion kit is the great equaliser. Usually the bass drum sounds the weakest vs acoustic live.

 

Agreed. To be more specific on the treble, it's actually the microdynamics of the treble that's where a lot of planars struggle as well as bass to a lesser extent to me. I do get where @ChaChaRealSmooth comes from and this is more apparent when the music gets more complex in the mix.

 

I'll try to keep it short as I don't think I can describe my feelings well. My personal impression with many (round shaped) Hifiman headphones is: WHY.

Older generations of Hifiman had that uneven treble and empty sounding. It's like the sound was made by a wall of steel bars in the void: different sound had no different form nor much depth, and not much things "behind the sounds" (well driven HD650, HD800 and LCD-4 do the "sound form" and "behind the sound" thing really well), it's uncomfortable for long time listening, and I tend to think it can be described as bad treble + lack of microdetails? So if that's what planars sound like, then no, sorry I don't like it. (OK, haven't heard HE6 OG. And HE500 is OK-ish because its warmer sound kind of filled the void).

Then the newer generations of Hifiman, sounded more even, but then there's still the question: why? Just because they sounded plain, common or boring, doesn't mean you should get them. There are other headphones or you can even get a headphone + a good amp combo at the same price (please just buy HD6** + Vali 2 (series or even 3?) and enjoy them). OK, HE400SE is good, because it's cheap, and HE6SE has that special rumbling bass that hands can feel.

Oh, there's another thing: the MSRP of Hifiman headphones vs the price of used unit in 2 years, hilarious.

I don't think there's anything special about the sound of Hifiman headphones that I've tried, OK... HE6SE is special because of the bass, sigh.

But Audeze headphones are good! But still, I don't think they are so special...

If you want special sound, Focal (Elex) was special to me, because of that speed and bite. Heddphone One was special as it gave me a ultra-refined impression of the sound, maybe it's because everything sounded really thin (shape-wise) on it while still maintained enough microdetails, but it needed some EQ. Ribbon headphones can be special, as my really cheap Chinese DIY ribbon headphone gave me that huge bass while again, provides good microdetails.

Guess I'm just a sucker for microdetails, if I understand its meaning correctly.

 

I feel Hifiman is among the more honest companies when it comes to planar pricing. They will charge an arm and a leg for new releases to go whale hunting then four years down the line price at low margins when it's gained a good reputation. The Arya Stealth is $600 these days which is great for those who are into the Hifiman sound. By comparison the LCD2C released for $799 and continues to sell new for $799 after over half a decade...

 

I'm not really onboard with calling what HiFiMAN is doing "honest" with respect to pricing. I sort of get where you're coming from, but I think it's still an unconscionable practise. Sure, folks will only pay what they're willing to to receive X Product, but what the hell.

I've never owned an LCD-2 Classic but have had the pleasure of trying it and several other nicer models e.g. the LCD-X out at several points in the past. As established by now I'm not the biggest fan of planars, but I like Audezes a hell of a lot more than I like HiFiMAN headphones; just going by pure technical prowess, I'm wondering how the LCD-2C fares in the current landscape after six-odd years purely in terms of what it's capable of in terms of macro-and-microdynamics and textures. I'm more invested in looking at amps and DACs lately than headphones, but while I'm happy to be wrong I don't feel like the LCD-2C lags *that* far behind other models currently in its price category.

 

There is an element with HiFiMAN that they have at least evolved their tech a bit (changing magnet and driver designs in subsequent iterations) and would alter the pricing with their older models as a result. I do get it, that at the onset, some of the initial pricing is WAY overpriced. Nothing more evident in my experience than with buying that HE6SEv2. (No way that was worth north at 1799 in the very beginning). But otherwise, they seem to eventually at least drop their older models down to earth at reasonable price levels in a more normal fashion.

So yeah - my opinion that HiFIMan are about 50/50 on price practices. They'll take what they can get for every headphone they make.

Audeze isn't changing anything. LCD-2C is what it is until end the of time.

 

Yeah. This is my take on it too essentially. I think claiming "more honest" seemed like praise but it's more a criticism of the rest of them that have insane margins that go on for eternity. If ZMF can do handmade small-scale stuff and still not really be behind in terms of price then most of the others must be banking in some fat margins, and @E_Schaaf has pretty much confirmed this before plus multiple threads made about how current TOTL headphones make speakers look cheap. Hifiman still fully indulges in "pricing at what the market will bear"/price gouging early adopters but at least over time they do achieve economy of scale and pass it on to consumers. So maybe I should've said "more eventually honest".

But on a second look, the LCD2C while staying at the same price does now come in a Pelican case which is nice. At meets I've never doubted the LCD2C feels better built externally than most Hifimans up to nearly 10x its price. But Audeze also has well-known driver variance issues that exist as far up as LCD-4 for $4000. Regardless of one's disdain for the Hifiman planar sound signature (me included in part), they seem to be among the few planar makers to actually scale production and trickle down.

 

Luxury goods psychology.

Consumers assume higher price = better

When you drop the price on the old product and raise it on the new one it makes the distance between those products seem larger. "Boy, if they can charge that much more for the new model it must be that much betterer!"

Consumers also tend to think they will be unhappy with the "lesser" product once they know "better" exists, even if the difference is miniscule or irrelevant. See Distinction Bias

This may help clear old stock that wasn't selling to make room for new products with better margins that are now more likely to sell at an even greater markup.

 

I'd like to present a counter viewpoint to that of sorts. If you assume the traditional dealership model of consumers just walking in and being helped by salespeople, then yeah price implies quality. But in the online era I feel like any sort of price bump causes an immense amount of skepticism given the prevalence of online review information. This is why I have partial sympathy with measurebating types: there are no popular metrics for performance beyond FR curves and SINAD digits so people end up hyperfixating on those at the lowest price possible.

If measurements and/or reviewers/influencers don't condone a product, that's basically a death sentence, and we see manufacturers get rattled by it so much they would threaten to sue.

A more general case of public opinion destroying sales: Sennheiser went all out economy of scale with HD6xx for $200 then do releases like HD660S2 that go back to prestige pricing at $599 and get dogged on by pretty much everyone to the point where they have to sell it for closer to $450.

This is the Senn Canada page for 660S2 right now:

 

Which is still stupid. Is there actually a manufacturing difference that justifies a 2.5x price delta between those two products? That people wouldn't accept 3x says everyone went "Hey we're dumb, but we're not THAT dumb."

Senns 6XX are a bad example though because low price point, many value shoppers here not necessarily luxury people.

Hifiman plays price games. Susvara Unveiled is $8000! HE1000 Unveiled similar giant markup.

 

Yeah now that I took a look at distinction bias that seems to align better with my experience. I wouldn't say even luxury consumers are proud of overpaying for these things but it's the nervosa of "somewhat better" and "latest and greatest" that drives purchasing decisions.

But most other planar companies I see don't seem to lower prices on outdated models to clear out stock but just keep drifting upwards in price to create that difference. And that ends up indefinitely gatekeeping people from even trying their old products. It might be a production scaling advantage Hifiman has in the planar space by doing things in China where all the magnets are and labor is cheap but they seem to actually trickle products down in price and develop mass market appeal. I know value shopper friends who have asked me what planar headphones were specifically due to the Edition XS coming below $300.

Their TOTL is totally ORFAS nervosa bait though.

 

Hifiman also has confusing product lines filled with more base models + sub-variants than probably anyone else while Audeze keeps stable base models but is the master of the silent update.

 

Is this discussion prompted by/overcome by the Hifiman Isvara? https://www.hifiman.com/products/detail/353

Gotta say, that phase thing is one of my boogaboos (no crossover, no global negative feedback, no passive radiators on speakers, pls)