Final Audio D8000 Pro - Out of the Dark Ages of Ortho Tech!

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Elmer Danilovich

    Elmer Danilovich MOT:Earmen, HeadAmp, Bricasti; AKA:MShenay

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    That has been my experience an I'm frustrated I only heard their mid-range line up at the end of Axpona a few years back which wasn't too impressive... I mean the lower to mid-range models were kinda disappointing so I didn't even listen to the D8K or 8k Pro...

    All in all great thread, I wasn't aware the Final had that kind of cash flow, tooling nor that they were hiring folks from those teams! I too would like to see a better option to the continued mediocrity that is and has been Audeze and Hifiman...
     
  2. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    @purr1n - Just curious - did you like this out of multiple amps / DACs or was there a particular chain that gave the good synergy you describe in the original post. Sorry in advance if I missed it.
     
  3. boomer

    boomer New

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    Because they don't. I really doubt that Final is bigger company than Audeze let alone Focal or Sony. Just because you hire ex-Sony engineer doesn't mean you are on par with them. On their wiki it says that their capital is 1 million USD. They did good job with their planar because they are in good graces with Yamaha so they probably made some deal with them to share old technology and tooling. I really doubt that Final has so much cash to innovate on their own. But they did it smart because they actually improved old technology. Yamaha YH-1000 has actually more advanced driver design than D8k so they will probably try to crack this one in a future.

    Btw. one of the main guys responsible for D8k who designed first product for Final in 1974 died in 2018. RIP Yoshihisa Mori.
     
  4. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Audeze is actually small. I was a bit surprised their FTE size is around 20 (from one interview in early 2021) -- well not that surprising for US labor costs. My bet is Final is bigger, but may not be bigger than HFM though.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's like many other planars which need some good power to drive. The MOTU Ultralite headouts were too weak, thus resultant sound was too soft, too warmpoo. The OG Vali 1 with the MOTU Ultralite as the DAC (warm DAC, neutralish but wet amp) faired better. The Magni 3+ was very good and just sufficiently incisive.

    The Eddie Current custom 45 Studio did even better, but this amp was meant to also power high-efficiency speakers. As I mentioned earlier, I flipped the switch from the 4-ohm tap to the 8-ohm tap on the output transformer for a more full bodied sound and better power transfer. The D8000 Pro was a bit too lean using the 4-ohm tap. I am using the Gungnir A2 as the source, which can be on the cool side of DACs - and the 45 tube is pretty neutral compared to 2A3 or 300B.

    I don't think this is one of those planars like HE-500 (OG), HE-5, and HE-6 that almost need a power amp to come alive. Moderate power seems all that is required. The rest is the usual synergy between sources and amps. I've heard the D8000 Pro a bit lean and a bit too warm depending upon combos. One thing for sure: the D8000 Pro scales like mad with better gear. There's a lot missing between [MOTU Ultralite -> Magni 3+] and [Gungnir A2 -> EC 45 Studio]. Like a lot missing - noting that I didn't feel the same way with the OG Abyss AB1266 (again not Phi or TC).

    Let me check impedance - be right back.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Final Audio D8000 Pro
    Impedance (GRN = on head, YEL = free air)
    Electrical Phase (GRY)
    upload_2021-4-12_21-13-38.png

    Impedance is mostly flat around 60-ohms nominal. Marginally higher in the lows with a small shelf of a few ohms and a small peak around 475Hz. This is a bit different from other orthos which are mostly very flat. Perhaps this is the result of circular traces, magnet pattern, and how the diaphragm is suspended.

    The D8000 Pro should not sound that much different with respect to frequency response from amps with higher output impedance.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In a nutshell:

    Not quite the perfect ortho headphone - still the D8000 Pro is light years ahead (rediscovered secret of the vintage orthos) with respect to driver tech compared to modern competition. The CSDs have no "ortho walls" or low level ripples which plague almost all modern orthos headphones which have tensioned diaphragms. Whether one can hear these things or not is subject to debate and may be up to personal proclivities or sensitivities. The D8000 Pro does need a moderately powerful amplifier to not sound soft or warmpoo. It responds well to components in the chain and scales like mad with better more resolving gear.

    The bass is first rate, almost achieving the same the "sturm and drang" of the AB1266. The transients are classic ortho, that is don't expect the stat like speed of the higher-line HiFiMans. The D8000 Pro does not immediately appeal or draw you in like a slut. This is the cute one next door where over time you learn to appreciate their qualities. The frequency response has a dip at 3kHz which may be amenable to folks who listen to naturally mic'd orchestral or chamber works (think BBC curve). The rest of the upper mids and lower highs are flat (this is a huge blessing IMO); however, the mid-treble is a bit rough with a tendency toward tizz.

    Whether the retro vintage ortho design suits your sense of style, the D8000 Pro does feel solid and luxurious. The headphone is a bit on the heavy side and those with Klingon ridges on the top of their skulls (this includes myself) may prefer some extra padding on the top of the headband. The earpads are fat and comfortable and seal well. It's not fussy with respect to placement or positioning. I really hate saying stuff that costs this much is worth the price, but of the expensive headphones out there, I would say this is one of handful of them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  8. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Only had them on my head for about 3 hours so far, but I was already thinking how no immediate "wow" hits you, excepting maybe the bass, other than the obvious general coherence/competency. A somewhat broad EQ dip of 3 db centered on 10k fixed the tizz (which on a hard test track did creep into overt sibilance for me) but then I normally listen to Focals. Bass is gooood, heck Cello's sound epic (to say nothing of electronica)...
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  9. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Thank you @purr1n .

    Was curious if the difference in "wow" between you and @ChaChaRealSmooth (and it seems like other members too) was due to differences in the chain, personal preference, or whatever synergy type stuff such as your custom 45 vs his Starlett, UL, etc. Sounds like it's a little bit of everything.
     
  10. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Have had these since Monday but plugged them into Asgard 3 (fed via Gun MB A2 > Saga OG > Asgard 3) for the first time tonight instead of the Starlett. I was unsure how I felt about the "greyness" of the mids (voices in particular) that purr1n refers to above, but the Asgard 3 brings the these mids forward a bit and clears them up, noticeably so. At first I assumed it was because the Asgard is lighter in the bass/upper bass of compared to the Starlett, but its more than this. This HP is also easily revealing the other technicalities (or lack thereof) compared to the Starlett (or the M6 Pro I have). So purr1n is right in that these defiantly scale. Will post a full review in a few days...
     
  11. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    The following was mostly through a Roon>Pi2AES>Gung MB A2>Bal to SE transform>Saga OG>DNA Starlett (with some Asgard 3)>Final D8000 Pro compared to Utopia (mostly):

    • I want to walk back my earlier statement that the Asgard 3 "clears up" the mids compared to the Starlett. I think I was mistaking a smoothing and a bit of loss of detail combined with a little more forwardness as clarity.
    • In the crucial vocal and mids region the D8000 Pro is truly TOTL. Is it the equal of the Utopia? Yes and no - I think it depends upon what kind of presentation you like. The Utopia just breaths resolve, plankton, separation, and everything else right into your ear like your favorite girlfriend. Every last detail of massed strings there for you to hear and separate, you almost can't get around it even if you want to. The D8000 Pro stages everything a bit wider/taller/deeper, and in a more "natural" speaker-in-room sort of way. The ortho driver presents transients and detail in a different way. I don't want to say "slower" or "duller" because that's not quite it, but with more inner body (though not "realism").
    • In the end it's fair to say that Utopia does indeed outpace the D8000 Pro in resolve/detail in the mids, but the D8000 Pro has a touch more "natural" presentation - it's less "point source" and allows you to relax into its presentation easier. I think it is safe to say that the majority of SBAF members would prefer it, similar in the way most here prefer the HD6XX mids vs. OG Clear.
    • Bass is epic. I sort of don't want to say more. As much as I like the Utopia's bass (even with its sub bass limitations), 9/10 times I want to listen to the D8000 Pro's bass. Weight and slam, body, texture, detail, it's all there and more compelling than the Utopia's.
    • Upper mids (putting aside differences in FR) and low treble (I'm 52 so I won't speak to the top octave) is where the Utopia has a real advantage IMO. I don't want to overstate it, but the D8000 Pro falls short of the Utopia's ultimate finesse, smoothness, and timbre accuracy here. The "tizz" that purr1n refers to is part of it, but for me that was fixed with a 3.5db .8Q cut at 9700 or so. So the D8000 Pro is closer to OG Clear technically for me here.
    • Build quality is top notch. It is heavy on the head fur sur. I am noticing its weight more than the ZMF's, and in the end it's not as long term comfortable as them or the Focals. The stock cables are on the chunky side, and the proprietary interlocking mechanism on the HP side means that some of my cables work and some don't. Of course at these prices what's yet another expensive cable in the overall "value" proposition (said with full realization of the irony ;) )

    I don't have the experience with vintage or modern TOTL orthos to say how much of the qualities of the D8000 Pro are inherent/specific to the D8000 Pro itself or the result of the fundamental differences between orthos and dynamics. I can't seem to choose a winner between it and the Utopia. I think my desert island pic would be the Utopia, but in my current mix (Utopia, Stellia, OG Clear, HD6XX, CA Ara, HD8000 Pro) I choose it for long, relaxed, "musical" sessions out of my main rig. This was a hard comparison for me in the end, the margins are so close. Let me know if you have any questions and I will do my best to answer.
     
  12. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    @purr1n any way to get these to me and @dBel84 for analysis as a finished ortho with proper acoustics?
     
  13. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I am not a follower of Currawong, this might be the 4th or 5th review I have ever watched (I note he likes the Harman curve - bad, but has questioned MQA from the beginning - good). He struggles in this review to nail exactly what it is about the D8000 Pro that is so beguiling, but perhaps said it better than I did. I find his speculation about the treble detail being held slightly back (in comparison to Utopia) by the pads plausible:



    One thing I would add to my review above is that in addition to the epic quality/texture/detail of the bass, the separation from the low mids is soooo good, there is zero bleed/bloat.
     
  14. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Since my listening has been 92.3% with the D8000 Pro for about three months, I did some back and forth with the Utopia today. I really noticed the mid/upper bass to mid bleed with the Utopia (when compared), and how clean the D8000 pro is here and how much it helps separation in voices/mid centric instruments. I also noticed again how much of a "point source" the Utopia is, the D8000 presentation really staging everything out.

    I wish more folks could get ears on these, they deserve it IMO...
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
  15. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    D8000 Pro Review

    [​IMG]

    GEAR

    Pi2AES with NoiseNuke -> AES -> Yggdrasil A2 -> @Fallenangel made SOHA or Magni 3+ (as an FR check)

    Music
    Music crossing all genres and frequencies from great recordings to those with problem spots, revealing aspects , etc. I have a playlist that tells me everything I need to know. But I’m not going to list the songs. I did listen to random music casually though as well as critically.

    Build
    They are very well built and look really great. They’re light weight and comfortable except for the headband and cable (see below)

    The earpads are extremely unusual for any heapdone but especially for an ortho. They are who layers of foam (I’m guessing two different densities, otherwise I don’t know why it wouldn’t just be made out of one piece of cut foam). This is covered by nylon female leggings type material (the kind of material frequently used as thin, transparent dust covers in headphones). It’s very acoustically transparent, leaving the drivers with almost no seal at all against your head. This means the driver is putting out a shit ton of bass to compensate for the lack of seal, but I’ll talk about that later. It definitely helps with a sense of air and spaciousness, but I honestly think it should be much better with earpads like this. They must be very closed off sounding with typical sealed earpads.

    [​IMG]

    The cable is a hideous monstrosity. It’s fat and thick and screams "I’m expensive for no reason". It looks like tin foil wrapped silver. It’s just the worst looking cable I could imagine for these headphones. I so badly want to recable them with some good occ copper to add warmth to the sound. The cable is hard to deal with and pretty annoying due to how thick and stiff it is. The worst part of the build of this headphone.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The headband could also use more padding. The headphones are lightweight so it's not too bad, but there’s hardly any padding and it’s not designed ergonomically. They need at least a few more mm of foam in the hedaband, and maybe a Sennheiser style gap on top to avoid the hot spot there.

    Sound In Brief
    The D8000 Pro has a lot going for it, but also a lot that is not so great. It has good ortho acoustics, with a well damped driver that is snappy, fast, well damped and there is little resonance. Bass is deep, articulate and authoritative. But the bass is a bit thick and slow, overwhelming the rest of the spectrum. The tuning is very poor, with a disjointed sound that almost seems like there are multiple drivers in there. It has a V shaped signature with some wonkiness as well. It is way overpriced at 4k. I would not want to pay even 500 for this ortho in a non fucked world where people knew how to make orthos.

    Thoughts on ortho acoustics
    The driver is well damped unlike most other commercial orthos. I can hear it moving fast, it’s snappy and it is responsive, never sounding sluggish, bloated, farty, or bouncy like others. It doesn’t have a hard time starting and stopping. It’s pretty resolving, but honestly not that great. My modded LCD-X (more resolving than stock) is equally or more resolving. The stock LCD-X is less resolving, mostly due to the thick dust screen that filters out detail. There is little resonance that I can hear despite the semi open enclosure.

    Bass
    This is a bit challenging to describe because it’s unusual and a bit paradoxical. The bass is impressive in many ways. It’s powerful, and authoritative and has tons of slam. It never sounds farty like a stock LCD-2 Classic or DCA Either CX. But at the same time, it’s a bit thick sounding, overwhelming the rest of the spectrum. There are many tracks where deep bass is brought out that my modded LCD-X does not bring out of the song, and its a cool affect but I don’t think that bass is supposed to be there. It also does not sound very nimble or fast. It’s a bit plodding and not very resolving. I would damp the bass harder to get the diaphragm to move faster in the low frequencies. Unfortunately this is not possible because it would worsen the treble emphasis. The problem could be the pad design. They are extremely leaky and have absolutely no seal to the driver, which is a big no no in ortho acoustics. It means the driver is putting out a shit ton of bass to compensate for all the bass that is lost by the lack of seal in the earpads. Put it this way, if you replaced these earpads with leather ones, the bass would be beyond Beats bass, it would be through the roof. So the driver may just be overwhelmed with excursion, having to move too much and can’t do it fast enough. That is my best guess.

    When listening to these headphones, you mostly hear bass, it’s very in your face. Though just north of neutral I would say, it’s not that emphasized, it’s just very thick and draws attention to itself while the midrange is recessed and hides itself.

    Midrange
    This is probably the biggest weakness of this headphone. The midrange is recessed pretty badly and is also thin sounding. It sounds pretty disjointed from the bass both in speed and tonality. It’s fast and zippy unlike the bass response, and recessed, putting the bass more in your face. It really sounds like one driver is creating the bass while another is creating the rest of the spectrum. The midrange also lacks proper warmth. I want more lower midrange with these headphones and just more vocal range in general. It would be fun to Lokius them, but my Lokius is hooked up to my iem rig. Speed and resolution are good but nothing extraordinary. There is no magic in the midrange of this headphone due to the tonality and lack of realism. And the magic in music happens in the midrange. Which makes the D8000 Pro a pretty boring listen. Male vocals sound thin and female vocals lack air. There’s a dullness to vocals. Emmylou Harris sounds so far away and there is no breathy quality to her voice at all.

    Treble
    I know the treble is exaggerated, but it doesn’t sound very emphasized to me. I think it’s mostly upper treble (air) that is exaggerated with the D8000 Pro. Or I need to get a hearing test like some noobs suggest. The main problem is that it is a bit hard and tinny sounding (maybe caused by the emphasis). For 4k I expect airy, transparent treble (in the sense that there is a lot of space in treble notes like you could put a hand through them - think stax). The treble is just kind of boring. It’s there, and the driver is well damped, but it’s dull while being a bit exaggerated. I was expecting them to be HD800 bright but they’re not at all. They actually sound to me like they lack sparkle and shimmer. This is probably just the diver not the FR. I would love to play with the damping and acoustics of this headphone and see what would happen. But I’m not going to buy one to try.

    Soundstage
    Pretty good for an ortho but not as good as many electrodynamics. It’s not huge, but it’s got good imaging and has a sense of air. I suspect the pads are doing most of the good here, as they are so open. I honestly would expect a more open sound with pads like

    Dynamics
    It’s a pretty dynamic sounding headphone simply because of the plodding bass. But I would say subtle microdynamic swings are not great. They sound glossed over.

    Resolution
    Not anything impressive but not terrible at all. They sound resolving, they just don’t sound impressively resolving. I think the Focal Clear og is better and the HD800 is better. My modded LCD-X is better. I dont hear a lot of tiny bits of information coming through with the D800 Pro.

    Final Thoughts
    Orthos have a long way to go. The fact that these seem state of the art is sad. They are more well developed compared to other orthos. No bouncy farty underdamped driver, no resonance, but they are very badly tuned and lack any kind of magic that a good ortho should have. In a world where orthos were designed well, these should be priced at 500$ or less. Maybe 350$. I’m not kidding. There’s just no reason for them to cost this much. They have pretty wonky FR, lack subtlety, resolution, cohesiveness and "engagement". I’m totally bored listening to them. They have a clinical sound to them that leaves music feeling lifeless.

    Maybe someday someone will design an ortho that sounds as good as the technology could. Orthos could have the speed and ethereal nature of stax with the weight and richness and dynamics of electrodynamic drivers. They’ll never have amazing soundstage though (barring a breakthrough of some kind)

    I don’t recommend this headphone at all. Sorry. I do appreciate the loaner as it is educational and fascinating for me to hear them (you know who you are)
     
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  16. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    @rhythmdevils, I am unfamiliar with the SOHA amp - it's a hybrid right? Where does it fall (warm/neutral/bright, resolution, etc.)? Your take on the bass is so different (a mirror opposite really) than mine and marv's I am wondering if there is some interaction between it and the HP.
     
  17. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    It's a tube/opamp hybrid (Simple Opamp Hybird Amplifier). Here's an article about the original SOHA

    https://headwizememorial.wordpress.com/2018/03/19/a-simple-tube-opamp-hybrid-amplifier/

    It's was pretty cool back in 2006 when it was first developed. Although right now I don't know who would choose to build it over buying a Vali 2+
     
  18. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    A normal SOHA1 maybe. This is not a normal SOHA1. It's got lots of upgraded parts including diamond buffers and some more I can't remember. It is also likely got some other tuning that is just putting it in a sweet spot and making it perform much better than it should, better than the sum of it's parts. I recently bought two First Watt DIY clones, an F7 and an Aleph J to use with my modded HE6se. My SOHA beat the F7 in every way and sounded about equal to the Aleph J driving the HE6se. It doesn't break a sweat driving the HE6se.

    A normal SOHA couldn't drive an HE6, much less do it better or equal to a First Watt. I have spoken at length about how this is possible with @dBel84 and it's partly the upgraded parts, and partly something else that I just got lucky about with this build and it is more than the sum of it's parts. Amps are like that, and anyone who has designed one or heard multiple versions of DIY builds can attest to that. I've heard different DIY builds of the same amp, one sounding straight up bad and another sounding incredible, both made by experienced builders using good parts.

    So the short answer is that my SOHA is very neutral with a possible very slight vocal recession that I've just discovered (why I checked with the Magni 3+ along with another amp that is a prototype and can't be discussed) but extremely powerful and certainly driving the D8000 Pro to close to full potential or at least close enough to judge it accurately.. Surely a TOTL amp would sound better but it wouldn't change my impressions.

    I just ran my bass test track again, which is brutal and highlights any looseness. It goes very deep with lots of information. I can see why people like the bass on these, but I know orthos really well and there is some looseness there as well. I have heard tighter, more tuneful, more accurate bass from orthos before. With my test track, I'm not hearing all the detail in the bass notes, and there is extra "resolution lacking tone" added on to it, if that make sense.

    the bass sounds to me like a Subwoofer that not only isn't that great, but also isn't well integrated with the speakers.

    I never liked the LCD-2 bass so people have different definitions of what constitutes good bass response. And most people have not heard orthos in so many incarnations and versions, with the drivers operating in different ways as I have (very very few people).

    I do think this is a well implemented ortho, it just could be better and isn't worth 4k IMO. The LCD-X is a more well implemented ortho even if they screwed up the resolution with that thick dust protective fabric.

    I also think that from my brief listen, the HD800 has better bass response even if it doesn't have the same extension.

    I hope this doesn't offend you @crenca I can totally see why you like these especially with EQ. I've simply heard a lot of orthos and expect a lot from 4k$. I really wanted to hear these and I'm glad I got to. Totally worth the effort. I will make it up to you someday I promise ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  19. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Oh no, I'm not offended, just curious as to why we hear these so differently. Not only with the bass, but just about everything else. For example for you these HP's are not integrated (bass to mids to high), yet for me they are the most integrated HP I have yet to hear (granted I'm using quality digital EQ to fix the tonality peaks/dips), even revealing how the Utopia muddles the bass to mids transition relatively speaking. Another example is microdynamically, those small volume changes that is so important to whether a HP sounds "real" or not. I think they (just) edge out the Utopia and is part of the D8000 "presentation" advantage over the Focals (in this they remind me of the Verite). Another example is that you have resolution/microdetail below the Clears, but I have it just below the Utopia (so an 8 or 9 to Clear's 5 and Utopia's 10). Yes, I do agree the transducer is not quite as "fast" as either Focal and so transients are a touch more "rounded", but there is more to resolution than just this attribute. I do think they are just on the "lean" side when it comes to timbre, but not in the way you hear. No doubt my Starlett helps in this area, but then they are in no way weak when I plug them into M6 DAP I don't hear dead vocals/timbre, on the contrary.

    Maybe where we hear them most alike is in the treble, though I think they are roughly the equivalent of the Clear's here (certainly better than the HD6XX), but my expectations are low in this area because I don't expect any ortho to do what the dynamic drivers of Focals and ZMF (it's been too long since I heard any HD8XX version) do whereas you higher/different expectations. In the end its this disparity between heard technicalities and integration that has me thinking our chains are synergizing with the HP in a completely different way, but that's just a guess...maybe one or both of us needs a hearing test :p:D
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  20. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Why not list tracks and specific sequences so readers at home can follow along, compare, and discuss especially if youre a newb like me still figuring out audio terms and how to recognize specific qualities. Would recommend hiding in a spoiler if lengthy. Id also recommend sharing so people like @crenca who disagree can try to better understand your perspective. D8000 is such an expensive and rare headphone with a unique link to vintage ortho that Id like to hear more about.

    I love reading about different driver tech. Enlighten us please on the various and rare planar techs and their respective pros and cons.

    I am disappointed to hear you did not like LCD-2 bass. Audeze is the company this basshead is most interested in trying next. Do you have a link to your review? Thanks @rhythmdevils
     

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