Focal pads are overpriced

Wow.. that is still freaking outrageous!

 

Agreed, any thought I had of getting a Focal in the future is out the window.

 

But that sweet Elex would sound excellent on your setup.

 

Yes, it's bonkers.

Worse is Focal discontinuing headphones, which means pads may become hard to source in years to come (Elear, Elegia, Clear all now gone within 5 years of initial release, only the Utopia left standing).

Worse still is that it's not entirely clear that the replacement pads are exactly the same. My newly-purchased replacement pads are up to 4mm thinner in places. I can't say whether this is because the old pads expanded over time. I'm trying to figure out if this makes for any audible difference and will post later in the week about it.

 

The aftermarket support of products from Focal is one of the worse I've seen. The absurd pad cost and driver repair cost combined with an insane failure rate means I won't even consider a Clear/Utopia. The number of "for parts" Elex's with a dead driver is shocking.

Seems like there's a coupon code for 20% an open box unit if someone wants to take a dive. I do wish there were more reviews of this unit out there. Seems like only a handful have landed in people's stacks.

EDIT rant: I'm somewhat surprised that Monoprice decided to send a review unit to the Zreviews guy, who's channel seems to cater heavily to the value/measurements only crowd where this amp will not do well due to its price.
The Cavalli name would carry a lot more weight and interest with people who have been around the hobby and review units should have targeted those people who would post reviews in areas where it would garner more interest and maybe trickle down to the wider audiences. From the perspective of someone who is solely purchasing a $200 Chinese amp for its measurements, there's no reason for this amp at 4x the price. Especially when the reviewer is basically saying "it makes good noise" *head bob* *head bob* *head bob*. /EDIT rant

However I do see mixed signals regarding warranty

https://monopricesupport.kayako.com/article/230-return-policy - 90 day warranty.
https://monopricehelp.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012402019-What-is-an-Open-Box- - Full warranty

 

This stuff is consumer electronics. Normally in this market space these are short lived throw away items - often (usually) with no after purchase support of any kind, or very little. You get 2 or 3 years of use out of the item, any more is all bonus. I know in this niche audiophile market some manufactures/suppliers are offering real after purchase support and longish term parts, but this is due to a combination of unique circumstances such as Sennheiser's background in pro audio and German manufacturing culture, ZMF's (and many other SBAF favorites) being basically bootstramp startups who utterly depend upon word of mouth for reputation/sells, etc. etc.

To expect these things to be heirloom grade stuff, used for a generation or two and then mounted on the wall next to your family coat of arms 200 years from now is not realistic...

 

You’re right, 200 years from now isn’t realistic. Five years from purchase? That’s a lot more realistic. Given the prices of Focal’s headphones, and the fact that they seem to be making unique pads for each headphone or close to it, it’s a real gamble purchasing one of their products in this line. I have a hard time reconciling “short term throwaway items” with $1k+ price tags.

 

Many of us (I don't - I buy a generation or two behind) have $1k+ smart phones in our pockets right now that will be thrown away (or become a child's toy, etc.) in 5 years. Look, Focal HP's unfortunately are not Drop HD6XX prices. However if you are seriously considering purchasing/owning a $1k+ luxury item like a Focal (or any other brand) HP, yet pads of $200 are a cost/psychological stumbling block for you, well then let's be honest and admit you can't afford it in the first place - or simply don't want to. It's like ordering the latest $1.2k IPhone and then complaining about the $50 Otterbox that makes it last more than a week, or ordering a $200k Porsche and complaining that the radio upgrade option is $1200 (or $12k). At this level, if pads, even relatively expensive ones, are the "gamble" in your equation, I suggest your math is off.

 

With Focal, it's tricky.

I think the concern re: pad prices is a bit overblown and largely agree with @crenca. Sennheiser HD6xx pads are typically around $50-75 and the retail price is between $200 - $400 depending on the model. That's a much larger percentage of headphone price than Focal's pads are, and Focal's use higher quality materials. Focal also does not have the same economies of scale in the headphone world as Sennheiser does, so one would expect their accessories to be a little more expensive.

However, those arguing about Focal's accessory prices have a very valid point. Consider the original Focal Utopia headphone cable. 4m length, all copper, and terminated with a 1/4" plug. When I had @fraggler re-terminate mine, he said it looked like it was Mogami W3106 inside. Retail price to replace the original cable? $1,100+ dollars. Truly ludicrous.

Part of the reason I bought replacement Utopia pads despite not needing them is because I worry Focal will discontinue them and/or the Utopia soon and I'll be out of luck. Already decided I wouldn't be selling the Utopias.

Focal's headphones have had some issues with rollouts. The warranty length was increased on the Utopia and maybe other headphones from the default to five years. I haven't had any issues with my Utopia in the five years I've had them, but know others have had issues with this and other models.

 

Not exactly apples to apples comparisons. First, an iPhone is part of a still quickly iterating market segment—smartphones—so the expectation is in fact that within five to six years the hot new thing will look like old news. I could also point out that most phone manufacturers produce a range of phones at different prices for different budgets and that the best phone manufacturers support the software on even their cheapest phones for that five to six year period (okay, I’ll be honest, I’m mainly talking about Apple here, but maybe some Android manufacturers do as well). I don’t have to spend $1k+ to get a new iPhone today, I can spend as little as $400, albeit it won’t have all the latest features. Additionally, that $50 otter box could be as little as a $10 case to protect against scratches and dings, and if your favorite case maker stops making cases for your phone, there are ten million other options.

Focal does have different price ranges on their headphones, but they are squarely in the luxury segment with prices to match. If they discontinue a particular pad, there’s no guarantee anyone else will ever make them. And unlike an iPhone, which you could if you were careful use without a case entirely, you cannot use these headphones without pads and using the pads wears them down.

I do understand your argument that the initial buy in price is the overriding factor, and if pads were plentiful and didn’t change the sound signature from pad to pad and there was a robust third party ecosystem producing similar pads with similar sound results, I wouldn’t use the word gamble. But the cost plus the real chance that at some point in the near future the pads you need to make your headphone sound the way it was tuned to sound could be discontinued with no reasonable replacement offered is to me the definition of a gamble.

 

Or take ZMF cost of ownership - Everyone knows (I know, I have owned a Verite and Eikon in the past) you have to have at least 3 sets of pads (i.e. a Universe, a Universe suede, an Auter lambskin, a perforated this, a Be2 that...) to get proper enjoyment out of them. That's $70 x 3. Since folks apparently are wearing out pads every couple of years that's $210 X2 or 3 over the lifetime of ownership of a ZMF, which equals Focals pad cost of ownership. What about cables? Who sticks with that janky flat cable "included" in the cost of a ZMF? Also, Zach is essentially a one man show. What happens when that melanoma hiding just under his hair line gets discovered, where are folks going to get their properly tuned pads from then? Not being gamblers y'all must be hedging and ordering a half dozen ZMF pad sets at time.

Then there is the $1-3k tube amp everyone is ordering with their Focals (I mean you guys are not listening to your Focals through sub $1k SS trash are you!?) and all that $tube$ rollin goin on every couple of months. Dac's are at least only $1 or $2k a year because you sit on those for 12 months or so. Heck, what is really being spent every year just on shipping all these pads/cables/gear around??

Look, I know folks are stretching and breaking a <$1k budget to get to Focals. I also know guys who stretch for the BMW and then complain they can't get the oil changed for Ford/Honda prices and have to sell when the tranny needs replacement. It ain't BMW's fault...

 

Since I’m the one responsible for starting this conversation, I thought I’d share some findings from some quick research. Your point @crenca about ZMF and Sennheiser being special cases is well taken, and my indignation at the expense of Focal pads, such as it is, should be understood in the context of the value offered by those two companies (after all, budget-conscious SBAF is what set me on the path to the HD 6XX and then the HD 800).

Perhaps another way of framing the issue is re. the cost of the replacement pads relative to price of the headphones, as shown in the following list for some of the more common or popular brands and models. Those in bold are the five most costly pads, relative to the price of the headphones (using MSRP). Focal make for two of the five most expensive. The HD 6XX pads don’t fare well here, although that’s more a function of the headphones' affordable price on Drop.

Audeze
LCD-2 Classic: 10% ($80 vs $800)
LCD-X: 7% ($80 vs $1200)
LCD-3: 4% ($80 vs $1945)
LCD-4: 2% ($80 vs $4000)

Beyerdynamic
DT 880 PRO: 14% ($34 vs $250)
DT 1770 PRO: 6% ($34 vs $600)
DT 1990 PRO: 6% ($34 vs $600)
Amiron: 5.5% ($33 vs $600)
T1: 4% ($37 vs $1000)

Dan Clark Audio
Aeon: 7% ($60 vs $900)
Ether 2: 4% ($88 vs. $2300)

Focal
Elear: 15% ($150 vs. $1000)
Clear: 13% ($200 vs $1500)
Stellia: 8% ($250 vs $3000)
Utopia: 6% ($250 vs $4000)

HiFiMan
Sundara: 8% ($40 vs. $500, assuming the HE pads fit)
Ananda: 8% ($80 vs. $1000)
Arya: 5% ($80 vs. $1600)
HE 1000v2: 2.7% ($80 vs. $3000)

Sennheiser
HD 6XX: 20% ($43 vs $220)
HD 800S: 4% ($75 vs $1700)

ZMF
Atticus: 5.5% ($60 vs $1100)
Aeolus: 5% ($60 vs $1200)
Eikon: 5% ($70 vs $1400)
Auteur: 4.4% ($70 vs $1600)
Vérité Open: 2.8% ($70 vs $2500)​

If economies of scale aren’t entirely at play here, it does seem as though replacement pads are less costly, as a percentage of the overall investment, for the higher-end models, which makes a certain degree of sense. For the Clear, specifically, you get the worst of both worlds: expensive pads, relatively speaking, vs. the Utopia or Stellia, and vs. other brands and models.

It also seems as though the differences between companies has less to do with them being niche/boutique/"artisanal" companies (Audeze, DCA, ZMF) vs. large-scale operations (Beyer, Senn) than it has to do with whether they’re lifestyle brands. I’ll admit that my first reaction to @crenca’s post was that high-end headphones aren’t entirely comparable to other consumer electronics. But now that I’ve given it more thought, I agree that Focal headphones belong in that category, not just in terms of disposability and planned obsolescence—which is what irked me the most about the Clear pads—but also in the way they’re marketed as lifestyle products, with arguably more attention to matters of styling than other manufacturers of audiophile headphones.

The good news is that, so far, I’m not detecting any great difference in sound between the old stock pads of the original Clear and the brand new replacement ones, even though the latter are 4mm thinner in places. I’d have been more rightly annoyed if I’d forked out the megabucks for replacement pads that weren’t, in fact, proper replacements.

 

I'm just pushing back for the sake of clarity. Your not the first person to declare a line in the sand on the Focal pad issue, "I was considering Focals, but the fact that the pads are about $100 overpriced is just intolerable!!". As I argue it just does not make sense in terms of dollars or otherwise. There is no "investment" in this hobby - it is a consumeristic luxury market and habit. When you consider the real costs of your total outlay, in addition to the time & effort that goes into building a synergistic $3, 5, 7k system, to quibble about inflated but still chump change pad costs is to focus on the wrong thing and delude yourself about what your really spending. Happens all the time though, just ask any car salesman (or home loan officer, or life insurance salesman, or...) what folks really understand about the real cost of their vehicle out the door, let alone total cost of ownership.

As far as Focal position in this market, I agree they lean towards the older ORFAS market and its old school dealer network more than Sennheiser, "artisan" brands like ZMF, chifi like Audeze and others (even if American fronted), etc. Does not make the latter any less consumeristic however.

edit: obviously we are off topic. Perhaps a mod can move this discussion to its own thread.

 

News to me unless California is considered part of China right now.

 

Oops, I was thinking HiFiman. Still, are not Audeze assembled in America with China sourced parts? High end Focals are assembled in France with China sourced parts as I understand. It's all overpriced luxury...

 

Is this the deals thread? Don't like the price, don't buy it. No one needs your personal justification on to buy or not.
$50 off looks like a nice deal post to me, but bitching about the original items worth, not a deal. Stop thread crapping.

 

So, your considering a 1.5k > 4K Focal headphone, in addition to a minimum1.5k > ?? source/dac/amp combination to properly synergize with it, and a possible $200 consumable cost of pads is where you get smart with your money? Your joking right?

Allow me to be brutally honest: If $200 (or $400, even $600) pad costs are significant (or worse, breaks it) to your budget when considering a Focal/rig combo, your doing it wrong. Your anxiety over that $200 is an indicator that your already well into dumbass territory and you need to be looking at an HD6XX based rig or something similar.

 

That's not the point. Even if you can afford to spend $1k+ on audio while still being financially responsible, you bet I'd recoil from $200 pads.

Talking from personal experience, I saved for a few months to order a ZMF Aeolus. Very early on my research on what headphones to buy, I ruled out Focal because of the exorbitant pad prices.

Don't assume because someone can safely afford to spend $1k+ on a headphone does not mean said person is OK with paying for overpriced pads every time they need replacement. Nobody likes to get ripped off.