Headstage: Why I really don't give a crap about it (or don't understand the fuss)

Discussion in 'Tales from the Bully Pulpit' started by purr1n, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Consider this: There is are a few Mexican Corridos that I like. One of them is "La Banda del Carro Rojo". In this song there is a passage where a police car moves from right to left (or left to right, my memory fails me often).

    With headphones (even HD800s), it sounds as if the police car started from my left ear, through my head, and into my right ear and then sort of disappeared there. With speakers, even crappy ones, it came from far out of the wall, through the room and out through the other wall... Not through my head.

    Similar things happen with instruments, unless I start using binaurals and even then I have to make some effort to focus on direction. Visual cues help though. But visual cues are not always present in music, or even accurate as it is with movies.

    EDIT:
    Los Tigres del Norte - La Banda del Carro Rojo (likely many folks here do not like Sinaloa style Norteño music, so skip to 1:00 - 1:05 to see what I mean.)


    EDIT:
    This is just an example that came to my mind in order to better articulate what I mean. There maybe much better recordings that capture direction and soundstage much better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  2. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Ok Ok.... Maybe here is a better example.



    With headphones.

    1) Piano too hard panned to the right.
    2) Violin too hard panned to the left.
    3) Drums and Bass inside my head.
    4) Cello too hard panned to my left.
    5) Flute (or whatever) too hard panned to my right.

    With the 5.1 effect thingy around 1:00, things maybe get a little better (following the violin as best I can). But things are somewhat inside my head.
     
  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    The equipment obsession makes it hard for audiophiles to look inside their head, where there is as much, if not more, information processing going on on the receiving end as there is on transmitting end of the music. Imagination plays a big part in these things. The stereo image is an illusion, and we can help or hinder it by letting it happen inside our heads as much as we can by changing the equipment on the outside.
     
  4. chakku

    chakku Friend

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    I've always seen headphones as an accessory to speakers and certainly don't see myself changing that view anytime soon. Personally I don't see why anyone would chase after an 'out-of-head' soundstage from a headphone, you're going to get that with a set of speakers and as it has been pointed out already headphones will simply never match speakers in this regard. Personally I use my headphones -for- the in-head, more 'intimate' experience in-between speaker listening sessions and so, basically, do use them as a supplement or 'accessory'.
     
  5. Hekeli

    Hekeli Facebook Friend

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    How hard is it to understand that some people simply can't use speakers to their full potential? I mean if you are ok playing quiet volumes from boxes that barely play under 100hz that's fine. If I get into speakers, I'm going full retard with acoustics and large subs/speakers etc. But that's not gonna happen in the near future.

    When that's the case, it's simple to get out-of-head experiences with Realiser etc, it works, and unless you've experienced a personal PRIR, you can't understand it. Maybe even use subpac or a little shaker to get that last bass touch.

    That said, I sold my Realiser since I don't crave for the out-of-head experience. I really dig the intimate headphone presentation too.
     
  6. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I understand your pov, many of my friends in flesh are saying just that. I and my friends hear the same thing, but are willing to make compromises in different things.

    Soundstage and headstage are too fu_king complex to describe with words. Imaging as i name it though is much more simple. Room angle and distance? Or do you mean something else.
    Shitty speakers do what Merv drew, paint a picture far in front but a blurry picture with little defined relations. Shit room augments the blurriness, great room doesn't cure it away completely. Good headphone, like HD800 has small headstage, but it is precise although comparatively abstract vs what we hear in real life, thus some re-calibrating is needed.
    I am not going to say that good speakers lose out to headphones in soundstage or imaging. Genelecs that I have here destroy any headphone in this regard, and some other more costly speakers do the same, but not for 1000$ a pair from the shelf, not here in EU.
    Diy is another story, yeah.

    Edit: As for is all the information there physically? I think it is, we just can't perceive it with hp-s.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  7. aufmerksam

    aufmerksam Friend

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    This is the fundamental problem. Headphones as hi-fi alternative was born out of two desires: 1) ability to enjoy high quality music within space and time constraints many of us have, 2) more cost effective way to enjoy high quality music within financial constraints many of us have. These desires conflate at the point of "I don't have the money, to buy the space I need to enjoy speakers to their full potential without pissing off my spouse/neighbors/co-workers/etc".

    In a lot of ways headphones were pushed forward to combat the outrageous costs of super speaker set ups (whether those costs are always justified is an issue for another time). However, Marv is pointing to a new problem, which deserves attention: as headphones get more attention (good) they also get more nutjobs (bad) who are willing to create/market/buy crap that costs a lot to exploit the moar money = bettar fallacy (worst). At a certain point, cost thresholds are crossed, and we owe it to ourselves to question if the original desires are still being effectively achieved with headphones.

    [Personally I am struggling mightily with a point Marv has been making for a while: my DAC and media computer cost more than a very good turntable. I don't know that I have the time to completely reconfigure into vinyl right now, but from a cost / performance analysis, it probably makes more sense.]

    More importantly, this problem of insane pricing begs the question of "why are we listening to headphones?" If the answer is because of space, time, and cost constraints, that is awesome, and places like CS and SBAF are vital, because they help cut through the bullshit that costs a lot and doesn't perform, the bullshit that makes us question "headphones?" BUT if the answer is "LOL headphones1!!" or some justification that doesn't hold up when tested (see discussion above) then its time to take a good look around and figure out if the path you are on makes sense.
     
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Well, with headphones getting instrument or sound source distance and localization angle relative to myself is difficult for me, in the absence of cross channel and equalization effects.

    I usually think of soundstage in terms of sound source localization.

    I currently have a set of entry level monitors (MR5MK3s), and given the proper recording, soundstage is IMO pretty good.

    I was not able to compare the Genelecs directly against the MR5s or the JBL305s @ the store I bought my MR5s. But another store does have them all and given time & availability I'll try to compare them.

    I've heard a good number of monitors and speakers though. Few high end speakers I've heard in-room @ different shows sound great to me.
     
  9. Out Of Your Head

    Out Of Your Head Friend

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    I agree. Ultimately it's about recreating reality, which is not a circle of 7 speakers on a 2D plane.

    So one approach is to have a very complex DSP algorithm to try to be able to localize a sound source in 3D space in headphones. This is not easy to do really convincingly. It's being done with some success, but to me there are compromises in terms of sound quality and accuracy of the localization.

    The other way to do it, would be to accurately reproduce an Atmos or DTS-X speaker arrangement with overhead/height speakers to make the soundfield more 3D.

    With Out Of Your Head, there is no technical reason why we can't measure height speakers or speakers located anywhere relative to the listener. We could also support as many speakers as CPU power will permit. Someday, we hope to have a 12 or more speaker emulation. But since our technology is based on measurement, we feel that the sound quality and localization of the sound source is superior to similar technology based on DSP synthesis of the effect.

    Some day, when either source material or games support Atmos or DTS-X speaker systems, Out Of Your Head will allow you to experience that sound without the need for setting up a 12 or more speaker system.
     
  10. Out Of Your Head

    Out Of Your Head Friend

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    Wow, you sold your Realiser? Didn't you have two? I never imagined you would sell yours.
    I can see not using the Realiser for 2 channel, but for 5.1/7.1, I couldn't live with just regular headphone listening.
     
  11. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Genelec is probably shitloads more expensive, esp in US.
    I have heard MR8-s and HR824-s vs my 8050 in good acoustics, but with poor source.
    The Mackies in that setup were pretty decent, definently not what I would tag ''shitty speaker'' although neither what I'd consider high end.
    I shoul have eaten my hat twice by now with my claims that acoustics is the defacto 90% what matters with speakers.
    Now i know that source usually matters more.
    I don't know how the Mackies scale, but I know that Genelecs scale like mad. More than HD800 even. Because they'r speakers.
    Not a huge fan of B&W, but the new ones are darn good sounding.
    New B&W 805 Diamond with my own R-2R dac was pretty awesome. Made LS50 in the same setup sound really poor in comparison.

    I do realize compared to some guys rigs here these are at best mid-fi :D
     
  12. Hekeli

    Hekeli Facebook Friend

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    Two? Heh heh 14.2 would really be something..

    Honestly part of the reason was ditching expensive and aging hardware, non-existent firmware updates even though promised etc, but mostly because I can't justify using it once a month max for movies that are pretty crap effect-fests anyway these days. It was a fun gadget to experiment and also use for headphone measurements. I did save all my PRIRs as impulse wavs so I can use them later in software, but I still haven't felt the need to use them.
     
  13. Out Of Your Head

    Out Of Your Head Friend

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    I understand. Well, if you ever want to make use of the PRIR files in Out Of Your Head, let me know...
     
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Mackies scale alright me thinks. IMO, the internal amplifier of the MR5 is not that bad, but it's underpowered. The HR824 and similar offerings in that line may have better electronics. The JBLs likely are more efficient. I also meant to check the Genelecs before, but I was running out of time and had to get back to the office. It's a long story. Genelecs are pretty expensive here in the US indeed.

    My brother has some entry level B&Ws. The ones he has are IMO too warm and a bit colored. They are clean though. In general, ol B&W tend to be warmish IME. My bro likes warm sounding speakers however. He is also a bass-luver.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Video maybe relevant to the Genelec in-room sound...

     
  16. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Couple of visuals to describe staging. Details represented by colored balls, think of a track frozen in time, and the details hanging in the air.

    [​IMG]

    Here's what a poor speaker rig looks like: the center image is diffuse, there's blurring, and details emanate from the cabinet, there's a wall of sound. This is due to room reflections or a crappy chain.

    [​IMG]

    Here's a good speaker rig: the X, Y, Z axis (width, height, and depth) are large, in fact you shouldn't hear the room anymore, there are holographic details and they emanate from different parts of the room, you can't tell that they come from the cabinet. The center image is very strong.

    [​IMG]

    Here's your typical low-res headphone. When I say low-res I mean everything that's not known to be superbly resolving, so this might be HD650 without mods with okay gear, or maybe a low-end hifiman? Notice the strong clustering of 'images' to the left, center (inside your head typically), and right hand side. The details are a bit blurred and blend into each other. There are still foreground, middle ground and background details but they are so damn close together that it's hard to tell apart. The Y axis or height is also poor. The resulting truncation of the height and depth axis leaves the width (X axis) seriously pronounced, compound this with the L/C/R effect and you get the below 'typical' low-res imaging/soundstage.

    [​IMG]

    Here's the same damn thing but with a large sound stage, like the AKG K70X. Things are a bit further apart, but mainly this is in the horizontal axis, result is still not the same spherical, endless soundstage as speakers.

    [​IMG]

    Now a hi-res headphone, think SR-009 or a modded HD650 on a really good rig. Everything is clear, placed better, but you still have L/C/R clustering. Angled pads will push things forward a bit, but only just so. There's a bit more delineation possible in the height and depth axis, but again a long cry from the speaker staging above.

    [​IMG]

    Same damn thing but with a large stage, like the HD800. Things are clear, but pushed out a bit. We still have L/C/R clustering, but less so. Still not quite speaker like.

    [​IMG]

    I realize that the height of these details are hard to picture the way I've done the visual, but whatever. Also, of course, genre/recordings will dictate where these details appear for you. In sum, speakers are typically the best 'reflection' of what the microphones heard.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  17. T.Rainman

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    Music is recorded to be played on loudspeakers and they tried to mix it in a studio so it would sound good on speakers in a living room and or car.
    That's what the (majority) of the music business is all about with the exception of a few record labels but even they aim for speaker-fi.

    Headphones are mere 'tools' or an alternative for when speakers are no option. An accessory with different attributes than speakers if you will.

    You can't compare them ... I do enjoy both for what they do right but never compare them in a spatial sense which is not possible.
    And no, crossfeed, 'spatialisers' and binaural recordings (even though a fun gimmick) don't do the same for my brain.

    I can't believe people actually TRY to achieve the same spatial awareness.
     
  18. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    Will a pair of common speakers (active, cost 2 grands) + a ok preamp (costs 2 grands) sound better than the HD650 + a pretty pretty decent HP amp overall?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  19. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    I improved the descriptions in my last post to better describe what's going on. I was shit bored thinking of this stuff after I made the visuals, so I half-assed the descriptions yesterday.

    Something to talk about - in one of my last sentences I say "In sum, speakers are typically the best 'reflection' of what the microphones heard."

    To get a better understanding of this, can we say that MOST recordings are done with dual mikes on stands? How high are they typically? I vaguely recall @LFF once posting something like '10 feet' but I could be wrong. Also wouldn't we end up with odd imaging if they were actually that high?

    TL;DR: what's the average recording set up? single mike, dual mike? how far apart? how far away? how high? toe-in?
     

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