JBL Cabaret 4698B Speaker - BWC alert!

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by purr1n, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. haywood

    haywood Almost "Made"

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    It's not audiophile quality but there's no comparison to one of the digital assistant devices plus a streaming service for ease of use by non-audio nerds. I don't think the regular echo dot has digital out but it looks like this thing does (for about 6x the price):

    https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Link-Stream-stereo-system/dp/B0798DVZCY/
     
  2. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    That's the thing that continues to blow my mind about my 18" woofers. Even at like background music volumes there will be these musical moments that have palpable physicality.

    If you haven't experienced it yourself, you've possibly experienced being in a building with not-the-greatest construction, and someone slams a door far enough away that it's not loud at all, but you feel it in the floor of the building. 18" woofers deliver a lot of these kind of barely-heard-but-definitely-felt moments.
     
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  3. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Closest modern equivalent being the JBL SRX835?
     
  4. westermac

    westermac Friend

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    So true. My $200 L-112's (needed refoam and L-pads cleaned) and $150 B&K ST2140 spank any headphone system I've yet heard. Headphones are good for mobility and shared spaces. Otherwise sell them and buy big (tall ≠ big) speakers.

    Less money spent on audio = more money to spend on things that really matter, like Legos.
     
  5. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    I wish.

    Big speakers need big spaces, and I haven't really heard a small speaker that does it for me like headphones.

    With everything everywhere being concrete, brick, or both, we just don't get the room sizes needed for these big ol boxens.
     
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  6. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    Some dudes hp rig costs more than BWC setup and a separate building for these built, combined.
    This is in my 5..7y plans.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    One Chord DAVE should cover a decent sized room for a year, maybe two if outside of CA and NY. That's a not a big room they are in.
     
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  8. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    The problem I have with headphones is I miss the illusion of the musicians in the room like I had when I had the space for Magnepans. I have loved their speakers since my first pair of MGIIs. The HD800S are very good but a headphone IMO can never replace a good two channel setup. After I recover from taxes this year I plan to find some decent powered monitors that will work in my studio apartment. Alas no room for Magnepans any more.
     
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  9. westermac

    westermac Friend

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    I'm definitely idealizing/oversimplifying things here, as there are often real-life factors at play, like pokey kid fingers (of which I have 30 at home) significant others, space/placement limitations, etc... But with some creativity (and perhaps some tenacity) there are often solutions available. Hell, garages and basements were made for enjoying big speakers.

    I have 3 different setups with varying degrees of compromise, all of which I enjoy and would rather listen to than headphones.

    1. Office (desk setup) - small (11x15ft) space with total freedom of placement/treament, allowing for effective setup of bigger (12in) speakers.

    2. Living room (home theater) - medium space with limited placement options, but carpet and furniture provide sufficient absorption/diffusion. 12in L/R mains blow the socks of previous L/R satellites, sub no longer necessary.

    3. Bedroom (turntable) - small space with literally one placement option (and not a very good one at that). 10in speakers on the hardwood floor, against the wall and too close together. L-pads allow for some dialing in. By far the least ideal setup but every bit as enjoyable as the other two.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

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    Please speak up about them then. If you do not post about it, it's as if you have never heard it at all for the people interested in it and cannot counter other impressions, which are mostly the exact opposite of yours (Kali are tighter, clearer, sharper, less smoothed over seems to be the consensus) and building hype train. Otherwise people will get interested and will buy them due to them costing very little and word of mouth. Cash-strapped buyers and cheap bastards will not be able to switch to something else if they're bad. I'm waiting for local music stores near me to stock them.

    HD 600 have clearish mids but are too present and forward to the point of making the headphone mid centric and sometimes slightly annoying to listen to. The overpresent and forward mids are mostly clear though. This contrasts to the smoothed over, opaque mids from a small woofer goes too low or too big a woofer going too high regardless of FR. Most old school JBLs I've heard have wonky FR or alternating midrange clarity and glossed overness, which brings out the detail in some stuff while hiding it in others. That's why I asked.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    LP6 to 305:
    • - Looser bass. Slower and lazier.
    • + But deeper extension
    • + Much more FR trim adustability via dip switches
    • - Softer and less sharp attacks (lows and highs). Un-detailed if there were such a word.
    • - More smoothed over
    • -- Less pin-point imaging - blobs (305 was outstanding).
    • - Slight dip centered around 700Hz and bump around 1.5k (roughly). Confirmed via listening positioning and 1m open space measurements.
    Don't care about hype. It's a decent value based proposition for cash strapped folks. I dislike that woofer. I am using them for my computer, but I would prefer to get the 305 back.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  12. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

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    Damn. Ugh. Thanks. Sounds like they might tick me off more and cost more than LSR 305 for basic monitors for guitar direct input and midi drum kit in my basement. I rejected LSR 305 v2 for that purpose when they were on sale last year as due to their (lack of) quality they would just be for hearing myself play without wearing headphones and YouTube videos.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  13. David De Lucena

    David De Lucena Science Nut

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    I just saw @Psalmanazar tag and forgot all the questions about those massive speakers...
     
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  14. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    @purr1n what kind of room size might be needed for a speaker such as this?
     
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  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The room they are currently in is 15' wide and 13' deep. The room does open up to a kitchen and hallway. They will work in a slightly smaller room as long as they are about 1' off the wall.
     
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  16. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    my dad bought a pair of Cabaret 4698

    my initial impressions, we listened in a terrible location, so take this with a grain of salt, is that its the biggest most neutral bass ive heard.
    treble seemed too bright, but that may be the room.

    Purrin, have you changed the XO caps? we are thinking about changing all the caps for good film one's....
     
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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    upload_2019-3-23_23-26-47.png

    I don't plan on swapping out crossover parts, caps, etc. I'm sure some improvements can be made to component quality, but JBL used good parts with a 0.1uF bypass on the critical caps too.

    P.S. Do you know if the diaphragm on the top end is a JBL and in good shape? The authentic JBL stuff is expensive. The clone diagrams don't sound as smooth and aren't as extended (they sound like ass).
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    For reference:

    jbl4698 NETWORK.png

    The actual values in production might be slightly different. The production boards might have small caps bypassing the big ones (C1 and C2). I haven't opened mine up.
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    With all this talk about big speakers, JBLs, etc. in this thread: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...nion-on-speakers-from-his-moms-basement.7751/

    Here are some measurements of the JBL 4698 taken in room. The speakers were set about ten inches from the wall. This should disprove once and for all the bullshit that big speakers can't be placed against the wall (assuming of course they were designed to be used this way.) In time, I plan on getting risers to lift the speakers off the floor and shove them a bit closer to the wall.

    JBL 4698B frequency response (in-room) on-axis 1m 1/6 octave RTA pink noise
    upload_2019-4-27_23-38-54.png
    • Contrary to what people think about speakers like this, they are not bass monsters. The 18" woofers are tuned for efficiency. They extend to 35Hz on a good day. I think 40Hz is more fair. The third bass drop in Doin' It Right didn't hit a loudly as it should in my other system with a subwoofer. However, the OB / cheap-sub setup didn't do the rest of bass as tightly and cleanly here.
    • There is a bump at 140Hz. I don't know if this is indicated in the JBL documentation (frequency response) for the E155 woofer of it its a minor room mode. More analysis will be required.
    • it's been argued that having two subs is better because its easier to tune out room modes. Likewise, since we do have two real woofers here that do extend to 35Hz, room modes appear to be minimal. We don't see huge peaks and most importantly, massive dips that don't ever seem to be fixable.
    • There is a narrow dip at 3.5kHz. No gonna stress about this. This is right at the xover region between the E110 midrange driver and the 2402/4 buttcheek tweeter. This tweeter takes a dump below 4kHz. The 7kHz and 12kHz dips are reflected in the JBL documentation, as is the early rolloff. The last octave in the JBL documentation seems optimistic compared to the actual measurement, but I am sure this particular microphone rolls off a few db starting from 10kHz to 20kHz.
    • upload_2019-4-27_23-51-39.png
    • Finally, the midrange performance is particularly amazeballs. Even more so surprising that the midrange network consists on first order crossovers and the woofer actually runs full range with its natural rolloff (and breakup peak before this) without any crossover components. I don't think most people can appreciate how excellent the frequency response is considering the efficiency and SPL capability of this speaker.
    • The principal engineer behind the Cabaret series was Mark Gander: https://pro.harman.com/insights/harman-pro/faces-of-harman-mark-gander-director-of-jbl-technology/
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  20. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    So here is the kicker. Here is a slightly off-axis measurement of the speaker

    JBL 4698B frequency response 18 degrees off-axis 1m 1/6 octave RTA pink noise
    upload_2019-4-28_0-11-59.png
    • The midbass looks flatter, but this probably one of those room things were if the microphone moves, the response changes slightly.
    • The highs are not affected.
    • The upper mids from 2kHz-3kHz get pushed down a little bit. This is expected. The midrange driver runs up to 3-4kHz. A 10" driver is going to beam at those frequencies. If there is going to be a dip, it's better in this region, especially if you listen to naturally mic'd live music recordings that capture too much diffuse field information. Look up BBC dip and all. In any, case, you don't have to listen to them like this. I toe the speakers in just a little bit to my listening position, so I'm only 5-10 degrees off-axis. However, it's important that IEM dudes who subscribe to Sean Olive's nonsense and prefer the genre of female vocals to shear their ears off will not be pleased because the region from 2kHz to 4kHz is a still a few db laid back even while listening on-axis. Also, the bass below 140Hz is nowhere near Sean Olive's consumer targets.
    • Finally, from the 0 to 10 degree off-axis measurements here, we can infer that this speaker is going to sound fairly neutral at the listening positioning if we go by the B&K 1970 target. I'll take a listening position measurement when I get a chance. The measurement microphone was close to the middle of the room, and this area tends to be less bassy than others.
     
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