Jude E-peens Tyll and Gaslights Us with Alternative Facts

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by Panohm, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Good response.

    Now emperor Jude has to stop "assuming" he is the best.
     
  2. mawk

    mawk Acquaintance

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    I'm not really familiar with Jude and his previous dismissal of measurements, as I'm not a HF participant. Even so, his wading into this seems extremely disingenuous. Having an additional data point with which to assess the Z1R is useful, but instead of just presenting his measurements as a counterpoint to Tyll's, Jude appears to have gone out of his way to present his measurements as *more* accurate than Tyll's, and then plays off the Utopia drama by "assuming" that Tyll's Z1R is defective. All of which strikes me as someone who is going out of their way to discredit other reviewers rather than actually adding something constructive to the dialogue.

    What concerns me the most is Jude's statement that he has been measuring headphones for two years. Has anyone actually seen these measurements, or is he only going to trot them out when it fits his preferred narrative?

    Also see here where he basically links a bunch of advertisements as implied justification for his measurement rig being superior to Tyll's...
     
  3. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    He used to boycott measurements. Ban them as if they were a bad thing.

    What he has done is low. Despicable even.
     
  4. digitaldave

    digitaldave Acquaintance

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    This is officially Not Cool .

    I'm disappointed that Jude chose to publish his findings in the way he did - a much better way would have been to contact @Tyll Hertsens first, and investigate further, not just go straight in with "my system is is the bestest evar!", and then publicly slate Tyll who is a very respected member of the community.

    Edit: kudos to @Tyll Hertsens for his response - "let's talk about this, investigate further and get to the bottom of what's going on (like he did with the Utopia / LCD-4)", rather than shit slinging.

    Like others in this thread, I'm also surprised at his turnaround regarding measurements... wasn't his hatred of them why Changstar was set up in the first place?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  5. Tyll Hertsens

    Tyll Hertsens Grandpappy of the hobby - Special Friend

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    Love you too, bro. All it take is a willingness to look at what's there.
     
  6. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    I disagree he can keep assuming all he wants, everyone already knows he's an ass.
     
  7. Ali-Pacha

    Ali-Pacha Friend

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    A good ol' shitstorm in phones' microcosm. I love it |\/|

    Ali
     
  8. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    He still boycotts measurements. He just now uses the most expensive machine he could find, and uses that machine to invalidate everybody else...

    ..there's your agenda
     
  9. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Two years ago he spent two hours on the phone will @Bill-P. A huge chunk of that time was complaining about how @Marvey and I were trying to ruin his life and the rest was asking about how to measure headphones. Yes, someone with a VERY limited understanding of physics and a large budget to piss away on a measurements rig is now trying to propose he went from that to expert in two years. Forget it takes years of experience with different measurement styles and equipment to really know the basics of what you're doing. Forget that there's phenomena that we haven't learned how to measure.

    This is just a case of an insecure, petty little individual needing to prove he wears big boy pants in the measurements space.
     
  10. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Someday, someone should write a book about all this headphone drama. But what would be a good title?
     
  11. ogodei

    ogodei MOT: Austin AudioWorks

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    "Your Ears Must Be Burning: The (invisible) Highs and Lows of my short career in Headphone Measurements", by Jude?
     
  12. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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  13. alphatak

    alphatak New

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    Hey Jude, don't make it worse
    Take a nice rig and measure better
    Remember to learn about how it works
    Then you can start to make it better
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Natural order of things and cycles. It's been too quiet without any JudeGate incidents for a while.


    The Little Emperor
     
  15. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

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    Head-Fry: The Rise and Fall of a Headphone Empire
     
  16. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    I can see that,

    What really bothers me is I don't get a chance to talk with @Bill-P much, we used to bump into each other regularly on HF and I see he was active here too :/ it's a shame that HF is losing a lot of it's really valuable contributors, the people who really add something. Like you did @Marvey, I still have my Purrin Modded W1000X, still it's a shame that Jude is forcing a lot of content out of focus, only to bolster views on his/their "measurements"

    An oh boy! I've got Jude Following me now too :D, thankfully it's just him
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  17. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Whatchu tolkien' about?

    I been around. Just that I don't quite pay much attention to anything else these days since I got Andromeda. :p

    But yeah, around 2 years ago, Jude and I had some discussion on measurements. I gave him the usual "yeah, you can measure shit, but it's mostly to see the differences between headphones, and not really to find a perfect reference." There really is no such thing as a perfect reference measurement. Or at least that's from my experience. After years of modding a hell of a lot of headphones, the one thing I have found that is constant is that: I have a certain "sound" that I like, and when I mod all of my headphones toward that "sound", then they all measure somewhat similarly on the same system. And that's my "truth." It's not a universal perfect line.

    I feel like that disclaimer should be put on any measurement website now because even something that measures dead flat with almost nothing sticking out doesn't necessarily sound godly.

    Also you can "cheat" a measurement rig into showing a certain frequency response or distortion graph and such even when you are not present. This goes beyond simply tweaking the position of a headphone on the measurement rig. Here is a proof of concept. Granted, I also made sound quality considerations, and not just measurement considerations, but this is just to show that it's not too hard to "game" the system once you know what it is. ;)

    And manufacturers and engineers know that better than me for sure. I feel like this whole situation is some Sony marketing people freaking out. The engineers would likely not have bothered at all.

    TL;DR: why does Sony, Jude, or anyone care if Z1R doesn't measure like a perfectly flat line? Or that it has a 10KHz peak? I certainly wouldn't worry about that. In fact, the Z1R admittedly measures very close to what I find "neutral" including that 10KHz peak because I like the Stax SR-007 and the 007 also measures just like that. I don't find Stax fans or Stax engineers fretting over the 10KHz peak on the SR-007 at all. With or without 10KHz peak, Z1R is just about as good as it is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Someone was kind enough to show me a way around reading Jude's stuff @ HF. Here is some commentary on Jude's typical defensive replies to some members:

    1. To a generic comment on measurements: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-691#post-13547647 - Jude is making commentary about how TOTL his measurement equipment is, how they have more than one MRD-Z1R sample (given Sony send Head-Fi one directly from Sony's Tokyo office, but hey, they are not sponsors), and how confident he feels about his results because of that (while at the same time showing false modesty by claiming "this isn't enough to come to firm conclusions, but these things are encoraging")
    2. To criticism about missing the point of Tyll's review (that the MRD-Z1R is a too expensive given it's performance): https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-691#post-13547732) - Jude indeed is not missing the point. He is saying Tyll is wrong in his general assessment of the MRD-Z1R, given Jude hears the particular MRD-Z1Rs he has differently and measure different in his setup. He claims he has more consensus with his subjective opinion, and much better measurement equipment. So either Tyll measured an unrepresentative MRD-Z1R, or Tyll's measurements and subjective opinion are misleading.
    3. To criticism regarding other sites measurements: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-692#post-13547771 - Jude dismisses any measurements but his own by cautiously saying that he can't "vouch" for them. He further comments on how well taken care of and calibrated his equipment is.
    4. To the suggestion of product variation: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-692#post-13547792 - Jude offers a friendlier stance by conceding that there might be product variation. Note there is absolutely no concession or caution in any of his posts that his measurement methods may not yield fully representative results in the absolute sense. Just discussion about his equipment being TOTL.
    5. To criticism about Jude's implicit message: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-692#post-13547792 - The message focus is no longer that Tyll's setup has limitations in THD measurements and results are unrepresentative. Now he embraces a previous comment made by someone else about product variation as a possible reason for the discrepancy. Furthermore it is made clear that Sony, the company that send Jude MRD-Z1Rs for review directly from Sony's Tokyo office, are not sponsors.
    6. To criticism about Jude's intentions: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-698#post-13549045 - Jude becomes defensive and claims he never put other people's measurements down. He claims he only said Tyll's review was inconsistent with Jude's review... and that cautiously he cannot "vouch" for any measurement done that are not his, and that his measurement equipment is super awesome. He claims "Nothing I've said discredits Tyll". He is right. Jude did not discredit Tyll at all. But he tries by comparing his equipment and results specifically against Tyll and claiming they are at odds.
    Anyhow, we could go on and on. Jude will spin things as he sees fit. Above is what I can see. I don't know how severely moderated that thread is to the benefit of it's owner. It is a known fact that Jude prunes threads as he sees fit.

    It is what it is. IMO Jude has some pretty strong interests, and some people are going to follow him regardless. Such is life.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Was Jude daydreaming when you told him that?
     
  20. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    No. He was still freaking out about the Pyrate t-shirts at Wikia! :eek:
     

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