JudeGate 3? Shut the f*** up Jude.

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The thing about measurements on SBAF is that they are not measurements for the sake of measurements. It's has always been about this: how well do measurements correlate to perception or experience? Measurements that correlate well tend to be the most useful. (I have not found a single measurement that correlates 100% to what we hear). And finally, measurements that do not correlate well are near useless.
     
  2. Dotard

    Dotard Acquaintance

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    As an aside I was going to end my previous post with something along the lines of jude attempting to dump a giant turd over the entire grassroots endeavor, but I held back, couldn't quite find the right words, and now it seems a bit incomplete without it. So here it is.
     
  3. scapeinator1

    scapeinator1 Once You Go Black You'll Never Go Back

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    I'm new here and a bit inexperienced in general with audio, but I just want to say a piece as someone who used to love r/headphones and worshipped headfi and zeos. The people there esp at headfi just straight up lie to you and are frankly glorified advertisers. And they speak so emphatically about how right they are and how great the headphone is (even if it frankly sucks) and they dress it in scientific measurements and psuedo scientific authority.

    The fact that HF has measurements isn't a problem but they use it to push a bullshit agenda. HF could be a great place that makes high end audio accessible to the masses and educates new enthusiasts but it really is just a cesspool of thinly veiled advertisers/promoters and a group of enthusiastic but naive users who believe them. People there either don't know what they're talking about (well meaning and excited about a particular product they may be) or they are purposefully misleading.

    Measurements are used on this site to do in depth examinations of the products with motivation being people who actually give a damn and want people to have the best possible audio experience. They are as Marvey said tools of understanding. They are not and should never be just pretty pictures used to project a sense of scientific authority to trick people into blindly buying products they don't need or shouldn't buy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  4. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    A good reply, but please for the love of all that is holy, use some paragraphs man!
     
  5. Arun Kumar

    Arun Kumar Friend

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    As I have mentioned in several posts before, I am not good at critical listening. I think critical listening, seeing past ones personal preferences, understanding the nuances of a gear, pitting a gear against an equally nuanced gear and coming up with an abstract model of performance of a gear, is not what I am good at. I'm feel comfortable sharing this because it's not my day job not do I have anything to gain from this hobby personally other than listening pleasure.

    Would it be any different if I had a dog in the fight, like this being my day job? Probably yes. It may not be to establish authority, but for self acceptance. It's very hard to come to terms with the fact that one is not and probably never will be as good as one wants to be, even though one is passionate about the hobby esp. coming from a position of authority. Sometimes it all comes down to dna and tons and tons of deliberate practice, beyond just passion.

    I don't know Jude personally and he's most likely a much better listener than I am. So this isn't particularly against him, but my thoughts on self-acceptance.
     
  6. Dotard

    Dotard Acquaintance

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    I think the critical listening angle is insightful, because I think this is something Jude has traditionally not been very good at. He very very seldom posts actual listening impressions, and when he does, it is typically using language that makes the entire impressions meaningless ("this is a neckable headphone" being a perfect example).

    You'll notice when he posts measurements he doesn't even give hand in hand listening impressions. This is why, to me, he seems to be taking measurements more seriously, because he doesn't punctuate them with listening impressions, or give actual real world context. He is trying to frame it as "this is true because it is what the machine says" with absolutely no context.

    Compare that with people like Tyll and Marvey, who generally would never post measurements without also providing listening impressions. I hear this or that, or I don't here this or that. The headphone sounds to me more tonally balanced than the frequency response would suggest. Etc. They have their preferences, you have a solid ground such that you can anchor your expectations to their preferences, and the interpretation of the measurements are intimately tied to their listening impressions, sometimes in ways that deviate from your expectations based on those measurements.

    This is where jude is really attempting to pretend that measurements are something they are not, and now that I think about it, I think he wants this to be the case to make up for his lack of ability to provide those critical listening impressions.
     
  7. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    The biggest problem might be the use of 'worshiped'. I don't mean that as a knock, but as an observation. Head-Fi itself is, like measurements, nothing more than a tool. It helps to know how to use that tool...and if a tool is accurate (or how accurate). There are some sincere people there, but it's a lot of work wading through everything to find what matches your own opinion, who you can trust & why. Much like audio in general.

    IMO the fact that Head-Fi has measurement's isn't in and of itself problematic, but how they're being used and presented as authority is. I'm a total measurement noob. I certainly know nothing of taking accurate measurements, and I'm just starting to learn what those measurements mean. If I didn't have access to this site, I might very well be swayed by what Jude is presenting, and THAT is the problem.
     
  8. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I'll add that a good measurement is repeatable over multiple measurement sessions and independently verifiable by others.
     
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    *sigh*

    Dr Jude is still going at it...

    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...ost-for-summary.795365/page-202#post-13986595

    Noise is important, but I think TenMoonsNorth point was that in headphone characterization where the driver is pushed to relative high SPLs, harmonic distortion tends to dominate noise. Based on this, I don't think the elevated low frequency HD800S THD+N relative to the HD800 on Innerfidelity and SBAF plots are due to noise, but more than likely due to distortion.

    Furthermore, both Innerfidelity and SBAF offered THD only plots with fundamental at around 40 Hz offering support for the higher THD claim on the HD800S vs HD800.

    I'm not sure how throwing the AP book at readers changes these facts.
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    *sigh* Need to stay away from Head-Fi. Waste of time. Dude does not seem to understand what he is doing, and seems eager to pull an NwJudeGuy "I'm the chosen one" number which IMO is not going nowhere nor is informative.

    Drama is kool. But we are on Jude-Gate 3, or maybe 4 or 5. All the time taking hits at @Tyll Hertsens, SBAF and pretty much everyone outside of his little circle. I don't see things changing.

    He wins. Whatever.
     
  11. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    He will never win. He is the big bully with punches that cannot hit the little guy who can dodge.

    When the little guy has had enough it only takes one hit.

    [​IMG]

    P.S. Yes I still watch Dragon Ball. Right now the Super series. Learn from Gohan: once you get serious you dodge to deliver that destructive counter.
     
  12. james444

    james444 Mad IEM modding wizard level 99

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    I don't get it, why noise would be important for comparative THD measurements between the HD800 and HD800S on the same rig and in the same environment? As if the bus or fridge knew when each headphone is being measured and deliberately desided to pollute HD800S readings only. If anything, I'd guess noise would tend to obliterate differences, not accentuate them?
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yup. This is another very valid point.

    Put this in front of him and expect Jude to either not answer, or maybe quote you some random authoritative source of information that is orthogonal to the discussion. He doesn't really give a shit about it all, unless it makes him and Head-Fi look good whatever it takes.
     
  14. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    “Now one of the primary points of my talk was to encourage manufacturers to strongly consider publishing their own audio measurements, given that audio enthusiasts are so increasingly eager to see measurements. So much so that they’ll generate their own measurements to get them.”


    All that’s needed now is a white lab coat...
     
  15. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    Dude. If your monitor is not plugged in, you won't see anything. If there are no photons, you won't see anything. If you don't measure it, you don't see it. If you don't measure it, you don't hear it.

    Of course emotions are something else entirely. Of course human perception is something else entirelly. But you don't try to objectively measure love, or perception. It's not possible. That's why you have SBAF, where you try to, smartly, convey your experience and perception. It's not unimportant. It's probably more important than measurements. But we should know what's what.




    I can already see it, in a couple of months...

    Jude:

    I have an announcement to make! I've finally decided to speak the truth! It will shock you!

    I AM NWAVGUY

    (procedes to write a book, only 199$, if you buy from our sponsors with our link, you get a 5$ discount)
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    It seems that Jude believes that it is only necessary to throw money and buy equipment. Like... just anyone, with the cash, could build a recording studio and produce good music? Or use advanced medical imaging systems to make a diagnosis? All you need is [what you think is] better equipment than the people with experience have. Right?

    IMO (and it is an opinion: I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I do try to listen to them) the answer is yes. However, the question is then what measurements? Measurements are often confused with specifications, and specifications are more-than-often turned into marketing material.
     
  17. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    A proper mastering engineering in a simple home studio would still make a better mix than jude in a multi billion one.
    I think he was referring to tools available to enthusiasts.Of course CERN or NASA could measure whatever the f**k they want. But probably even they would have a problem measuring some people's egos.


    A T-shirt?
    JUDAVGUY
     
  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Looks like it is Jude that, increasingly, is nothing more than a tool.

    If I was in America, I'd go there for the classifieds, and buy some stuff. I'm not, so I have no reason to go there at all.
     
  19. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    A residual noise measurement of the headphone measurement system, in it's environment during normal measurement hours, would be helpful for all to see where the noise bodies are buried. I don't want to see just the NC number but a 6th octave or higher resolution spectrum of the ambient residual. But I'm inclined to believe at least one individual would cherry pick the lowest found rather than a low, high and average of the measurement system residual acoustic noise. It is possible to acquire low noise acoustic measurements in less than ideal environments with a second, independent system tracking the ambient environment during measurements made by the primary system. Not too difficult, but requires thought, understanding, experience and patience.
     

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