Kobe Bryant helicopter crash

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by purr1n, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Pogo

    Pogo Friend

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    RIP for the 9 dead, we will all die but this too soon for those aboard

    Prayers for their family members who have suffer the loss for the rest of their lives, may their God bring them all possible consolation.

    As a father of four, my most ferverent wish is that I never have to survive the death of any of my chidren, I do hope that Mr Bryant took some poor solace in that split second realization.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I'm probably trying to grasp sense out of something that just doesn't make sense, but according to that information, the pilot was flying awfully low.

    I know that area and those trails like the back of my hand. They aren't 5000ft mountains, but we are still talking about 1300 - 1700ft where the 101 is near sea level or maybe a few hundred feet about it. I'm just super puzzled that the pilot did not plan for an instrument flight at a much higher altitude, say 5000ft to avoid all that (like the news chopper) but instead asked for visual and flew so low at around 1800ft approach those hills. The last radio calls from air traffic control telling the pilot he was too low for radio and radar contact was the sign of impending doom. I figured the pilot was flying ever lower so he could see the 101 to guide him visually. I was thinking the air traffic control would have said "no bueno" to the pilot's visual flight rules request, but it's my understanding decisions like that are left solely up to the pilot.

    Three 1300ft+ peaks circled below. Approximate crash site marked with small X.
    terrain.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  3. randytsuch

    randytsuch Friend

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    Someone I heard was guessing he was flying low to try to be under the fog, and he thought he had already passed any hills he needed to worry about.

    But in addition to being really low, was supposed to be going really fast. Not a good combination.
     
  4. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    Here's an update from VAS for those who - like most - don't understand the jargon used in ATC.

    But, long story short, the weather was awful, police and fire helis were grounded, the chopper was operating under Spacial VFR rules which meant they had to stay under the clouds, and they had to fly slowly because of poor visibility.

    Anyone familiar with heli operations will get the heebie-jeebies hearing that, because that's a recipe for disaster as you risk operating in the coffin corner or dead man's curve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_height–velocity_diagram?wprov=sfla1

    You're not allowed to climb, you can't go very fast, you can't see the terrain, you're too slow for autopilot, and if you're not ultra-careful and lose thrust you won't have enough energy to auto-rotate.

    I doubt the latter is what happened, that chopper is a TOTL exec chopper with 2 engines and can fly no problem on just one, but regardless its some stupidly dangerous conditions to operate in on flat terrain, let alone in a hilly area.

    They shouldn't have been in the sky - if emergency services are grounded, don't take off ffs.
     
  5. netforce

    netforce MOT: Headphones.com

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    I remember seeing news reports the day before the accident that the fog was so thick in LA, flights in LAX were delayed and it stretched all the way to the San Gabriel area which is kinda nuts. Flying in to LAX on Sunday and looking out the window had no visibility when we were touching down until we got pretty close.

    Trying to fly a helicopter in that fog? That was trouble waiting to happen.

    Listening to the explanation and how it was a sudden noise. Sounds like the helicopter in poor visibility didn't see the hill until it was too late.
     
  6. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

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    The pilot was following Visual Flight Rules (VFR) which requires flying at lower altitudes to see the ground. The more important question is; why was the flight ever given special permission to fly in poor conditions? It was this decision by flight control that could have prevented this heartbreaking tragedy.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Next time I'm coming home and in the passenger's seat, I will take a video to show you guys the terrain around 101 where it dips into Las Virgines. It's extremely dangerous terrain for low flying craft, even if the weather is good. You guys saw the peak elevations from the AllTrails maps that I posted. Great for hiking when you are averaging 3mph. Bad for helicoptering going 120+ knots. Special VFR would like pretending to be Stringfellow Hawke on AirWolf.

    I saw a graphic somewhere which showed prior flights of the pilot and copter. They all seem to be more or less direct from Newport Beach to Newbury Park / Thousand Oaks. This flight was a bit odd in that it went north, looped around Glendale, went north up 5, and then came back down to 101 to head west. Not sure if the pilot was familiar with coming from this direction.
     
  8. Velomane

    Velomane Acquaintance

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    I'm ATC in Canada, and I believe the rules are the same. If I have the conditions for special VFR, it is not for me to deny the pilot's request. His request implies he can deal with these conditions. It is solely the pilot's responsibility to know whether he should stay on the ground.
     
  9. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

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    Burbank ATC gave the clearance after circling/holding for 12 minutes. You are correct the pilot is also responsible for determining if its safe to fly under VFR after clearance has been given as per the FAA AIM. The NTSB will no doubt be looking at that central issue.

    I'll leave the cause of the crash to the investigators. Its a reminder to hug your loved ones tonight because they or you may not come back through that door tomorrow and ask yourself everyday what do you want your legacy to be? Through the turmoil and critics, Kobe Bryant rose to the occasion, inspired millions, and was a giant on and off the court.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  10. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    At the start of the comms Burbank ATC mentions both them and Van Nuys have flights in the air south - don't remember if it was departures or arrivals - and basically tells him he can either wait 10 and loop North to be out the way of traffic or go back home.

    With hindsight he should have cancelled, but honestly I'll let the NTSB report figure that out.

    You can see on the VASav radar though, he's mostly hanging at 014 (1400ft) with a nominal cloud ceiling of 1100, he's basically scraping the rotor into the bottom of the cloud layer just to able to see anything and have a bit of altitude banked.
     
  11. james444

    james444 Mad IEM modding wizard level 99

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    I'm a total layman when it comes to helicopters, so bear with me if this is a dumb question.

    What I'm not getting is, I use a simple GPS-driven moving map on my phone for car travel and hiking, and it shows me where I am, the direction I'm going and the terrain elevation around me. As a side note, it didn't even cost me a dime.

    Why does a TOTL helicopter not have something like that? It would have clearly shown the pilot that he's flying towards peaks that are way higher than the cloud ceiling.
     
  12. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    This chopper didn't have TAWS. (Terrain Awareness Warning System) which does what @james444 is asking about. It's an upgrade option or even standard with high end commercial or Military aircraft. But depending on the age and model of this chopper it may not have been possible without an expensive retrofit.
     
  13. netforce

    netforce MOT: Headphones.com

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    Saw in WSJ article retrofitting the TAWS would have been in the $25k-$40k range
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/kobe-b...ical-warning-system-officials-say-11580264053

    Tragic and hindsight is always 20/20 that for a pricey helicopter that this piece may have prevented this accident. But air crafts are very complicated machines, the 737 MAX we are learning now had the flawed MCAS which was implemented to help the 737 MAX but led to two crashes.

    It has been a few days since the crash and it still feels surreal to me that Kobe is gone.
     
  14. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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  15. Unkgd

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    Here is a link to an article written by a retired airline pilot (Les Abend) that attempts to explain the sequence of event leading up to the crash in nromal (non FAA) anguage - https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/28/opinions/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-abend/index.html

    As a recreational pilot (GA) I thought this article explains things like SFR and airport clearance very well. He does it much better than I have been while talking to some of my non aviation friends.
     
  16. james444

    james444 Mad IEM modding wizard level 99

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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2020/02/08/probe-bryant-helicopter/

    Looks like pilot was just looking for a way out of the clouds. He would have been fine had he kept going forward and up as he was for almost a minute, but he went left and fast down instead. I'm assuming because it a combination of being freaking out and losing sense of orientation. Seconds can seem like hours if you are lost in the fog.
     
  18. Unkgd

    Unkgd New

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