KZ Busted for Muted Accessory Drivers

Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by dubiousmike, Mar 7, 2022.

  1. dubiousmike

    dubiousmike Friend

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    This story evidently broke a few days ago on Reddit, but having just stumbled on it by accident, I figured it was worthy of cross-posting - both as a warning to those who may visit SBAF with KZ iem's in mind and for what I hope will prove to be an entertaining discussion about this revelation and perhaps the iem industry in general.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...ts_exposed_for_putting_decorative_drivers_in/

    The summary version is that only the DD in the "tribrid" KZ CRN / ZEX is producing any audible sound. The BA and EST are there, but reportedly only for marketing purposes, as revealed when the DD is disconnected. This has obviously raised a lot of questions about what may be going on inside other KZ multi-driver iem's that seem to share similar FR with one another, irrespective of driver count.

    Candidly, I had been flirting with picking up a KZ CRN myself, to have something bassy on hand as a complement to my OG Andros - notwithstanding that my one prior foray into KZ phones, the ED16, is probably the worst tuned piece of hot garbage I have ever jammed in my ear.

    Crin's tuning of the one active DD in the CRN is clearly on point. It is a shame KZ didn't just pull out the other drivers though, knock $10 off the price and sell it for what it really was. Crin has posted a response here: https://crinacle.com/2022/03/07/the-crn-kz-situation/
     
  2. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Looked into the response. I got some people local to me saying that this is all fine and that if they sound good to you regardless (I recuse myself from commenting on their sound) then the product is still a good one. I do not have the right blood pressure level to be dealing with that, sigh.

    Thanks for sharing! I slept on this since I'm not on reddit nearly as much but was looking to them as a reco for people just getting into the hobby since I though the ZST was kinda fun-fi. Passing for now though, this is dumb
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  3. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Thanks for posting this! I’m not on Reddit so it totally passed me by. Reading Crinacle’s response, the thing that jumped out at me was that the other two drivers are producing sound, but they’re playing at volumes so insignificant that effectively all you are hearing is the DD.

    If this were a one off issue, I’d be tempted to say this was simply the solution KZ found to best hit Crin’s desired tuning. However, the tear downs of other KZ units that show multiple IEMs with drivers that for multiple different reasons are inaudible reveal that KZ is either incompetent or committing outright fraud.

    Given that so much of IEM marketing is based on the number of drivers in the unit, to include those drivers but either disable them or make them inaudible means there is no meaningful difference among the product line, and everything above the lowest cost entry level unit is simply a rip off of the consumer.

    I haven’t owned or heard any KZ IEMs but this should be enough to shutter the company for good (although as often happens in certain segments of audio, would not stop the offenders from simply changing names and shells and continue on their merry way).

    It does look like Crinacle got caught in the middle of an unfortunate mess and is now learning a painful lesson in terms of vetting the companies he chooses to lend his name to. I have no reason to doubt his version of events. I will say though that the “I never marketed this IEM based on the drivers” argument does ring a bit hollow because even if he didn’t focus on drivers as a selling point, people do take drivers and driver count as a factor when making purchasing decisions above and beyond just the FR, and to my taste I would have simply preferred the apology without that section, as he otherwise does take responsibility for not checking the outputs of the other drivers individually or at least asking KZ for that data.
     
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  4. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Perhaps just a matter of optics but I don't see KZ going anywhere. They have quite the effective stranglehold on the budget SEA market. Tried one and it made sound. V-shaped so not offensive to me but given they target the ~USD10 range the technical performance is more or less what you'd expect.
     
  5. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    To me that says more about the consumers than the company. The IEM market often makes little to no sense, IMO.
     
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  6. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Amen.
     
  7. james444

    james444 Mad IEM modding wizard level 99

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    As everyone here knows, I'm a fan of single DDs and have frequently lamented the fact, that people think a higher number of drivers will buy them better sound quality.

    But it never occurred to me that you can give people what they want and still let them enjoy the goodness of a single DD. This is pure genius! :p
     
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  8. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    KZ IEMs mostly look like shit IMO. I am already bias against Crin since his tastes is different from mine, but this situation isn't making it any better. IMO he screwed up by not doing enough research.

    Guess I'll always be bias against Crin, but I do enjoy the IEM Master List and his Youtube page for what it is.
     
  9. Baten

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    The only IEMs I didn't sell off because I didn't find them 100% "worth it", were non overpriced-to-shit, single DD IEMs. On the one hand I just don't like a lingering feeling of being ripped off, and on the other hand this all shows there is just too much bullshit around to skirt around being ripped off. I wonder if any other manufacturers will be exposed next, though! Wouldn't be surprising at this point.
     
  10. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Not to defend KZ (they've done worse in the past, ie not even connecting some drivers, ripping off Campfire shape, etc.), and it's not a great concern to me personally because having heard a number of their earlier products I'd never buy a KZ regardless of who it was tuned by - but I wonder if this particular episode might be a bit overblown because it's based solely on the comparison of frequency response curves.

    Ok, disconnecting the other drivers as the people mentioned in Crinacle's links did shows that relatively, the DD is playing at an amplitude that produces the total measured response across the entire frequency range (Delta Fyre). But if the other drivers are producing some amplitude in parts of the range (as established by Hi Fri), timbral/technical characteristics of those drivers might be audible there.

    I'd like to at least see distortion measurements of the earphones in question with different drivers connected vs not. And to read some more thorough listening impressions.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The way to verify would be disconnect the DD and see if the BA and EST drivers make any sound. Another more complex way is take a look at distortion with various drivers connected / disconnected. Did the OP do this? Other possibilities:
    • OP on Reddit broke something while taking IEM apart
    • Unit came defective
    • Reddit gives me a headache and reading any of this was just a bad dream
    P.S. And what the heck is KZ? Is that some kind of lube?
     
  12. Wilewarer

    Wilewarer Almost "Made"

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    The original Facebook OP (I can't believe I clicked a link to Facebook) indicates that the unit made no audible sound with just the BA and EST connected.

    Anyway, I didn't even realize this thing was supposed to be a tribrid. Probably would have if I'd looked into buying it more. Still, given it evidently sounded more or less like people thought it would given the price and tuning, this is somehow still way less fraudulent than a lot of other audio nonsense.
     
  13. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    They're THE de facto entry level IEM recommendation in my neck of the woods. I kid you not seeing so much kz hype in local online audio groups contributed to my being more active here.

    Edit: I'm being uncharitable above but I'm leaving it in for posterity.

    Their products are easily accessible since the bulk of them cost less than ₱700/$13.50, which well fits more budgets. It's just that there was a point years ago where I got tired of seeing so many posts about the KZ ZST, KZ ZS3, and whatever else models they had around that I noped out of many of those circles haha.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Hmm, the circuitry is there. I'm betting wrong component values. SMT components aren't marked. Sometimes a idiot loads the spool with the wrong parts.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    OK, I'm confused. Are the EST and BA driver supposed to be muted to the point where they do not contribute much or anything to the sound - like to add special timbre or transient effects?*

    P.S. Oh wait, nevermind. Too much tl;dr stuff that I had to catch up on. Crin's disavowed KZ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  16. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Short version is that many believe this IEM could have simply used a single dynamic driver instead of multiple BA ones and achieved effectively the same sound. It's a case of consumers feeling lied to by marketing (shocker, that never happens [this is sarcasm]).

    People are getting what they paid for (crin's target with a whit of extra treble hotness it looks like), but until the penny dropped people thought they were getting multi-armature sound. The general sentiment appears to be that KZ did this primarily for bragging rights (more armatures = better) and to justify a higher cost than might have otherwise been feasible had it been marketed as a single DD.

    I blame Jerry Harvey for the IEM equivalent of the megapixel wars. Also curious what the same more drivers = better would think about Sony's USD 2,500 Just Ear CIEM.

    https://www.sony.co.jp/Products/justear/

    Sorry if I'm spamming the thread. I'm just more emotionally invested in KZ than I thought, it seems.
     
  17. Wilewarer

    Wilewarer Almost "Made"

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    My best guess from skimming a few related posts (including Crinacle's) was that the engineers did exactly what they intended to for the tuning they wanted (or that Crinacle told them would be good)... but didn't actually think too much about what that was, and so didn't notice that this effectively zeroes out 2 of the drivers.

    Of course, it could also just be intentional marketing nonsense. Either way, it'd fit with how many of us suspect IEM tuning and marketing works from a lot of these companies.

    If I recall, this was a retuned version of some other KZ model, right? It'd be interesting to see if that model also has the other drivers zeroed out. Probably more effort than this deserves, but might be informative.
     
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  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^ that explanation makes the most sense.

    Can someone hook me up with KZ to they can make purr1n tuned DACs? Topping stuff is kind of overpriced. I do think it's kind of cool that KZ is making super affordable IEMs while everyone else seems to be only racing to the top. TBH, I'm not even sure why Crin had to disavow KZ much less write that long scientific treatise. Geez, consider the BA and EST drivers as extras for bragging rights. Like the fake scoops they put on sports cars.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  19. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Specifically for the Crin-tuned model, the TLDR is that:

    Disconnecting the EST and BA drivers makes no difference to the total frequency response curve (this graph) so people are thinking that all they're hearing is the DD, and that they've been ripped off by the marketing (despite these things being exceedingly cheap).

    However, measuring the other drivers in the absence of the DD shows that they do produce some sound, albeit at low amplitude thanks to the crossovers (see also towards the end of the video in Crinacle's explanation). So maybe they have an audible effect.

    KZ could probably do a DAC with a tube output stage, but the tubes might only be there for the light show :D
     
  20. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I speak from a bit of somewhat experience because I actually purchased these as a cheap knockaround IEM and turned out that I did not like them. Too shouty and disconnect in the low end. I offered them to @rhythmdevils as and addition to throw on another IEM for a loaner tour because it was not worth it for me to return them, so I donated them to SBAF. @purr1n, if you want to play around with them and measure them, get a hold of RD, he has them. Although some already disconnected the DD and yes, there is something there.

    I will say I did not like the timbre of them. There was something too shouty in the high mids that was not so much BA sounding and something I can only attribute to the EST, which is nothing more than a small piezo tweeter. They were also kind of big for what they are, but I guess they are a tribrid.

    I will say at least Crin is being honest and candid about how he came into the involvement with KZ, how he was compensated, and his mistakes, and his dissolvement of the relationship between he and KZ. Also, anything above 8k in any coupler is hella flawed. They also can't tell you timbre. The true test would be to disconnect the EST and BA and see if it changes the sound or character at all and not just look at graphs.

    And for a guy who thinks the best DAC is the Apple dongle, he is not much on anything super high quality DAC or amp wise. I mean, most IEM's need fleas power to sound decent. Some need more, but IEM's are designed for ultimate portability and comfort anyway.
     

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