Living with the impression that my speakers are not at their potential and I think it's the DAC

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by nylac, Oct 2, 2020.

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  1. nylac

    nylac New

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    So while digging up in my Google Photos I realized that it's been 9 years since I got my current speakers, Dynaudio Confidence 3s (not C3, mine are a whole different, earlier model from the early 2000s). After using them with an Arcam rDAC + DIY Hypex amp, I switched to an Audio Refinement Complete amp, which produces a much livelier, warmer and bassier sound.

    But in all these years I felt these speakers are nowhere near their potential. I never managed to get that 3D sound that I've heard from lesser Dynaudios and for which the Confidences are praised for and I believe it's the DAC. I've experimented with placement but it's not it. I even went to someone else's house and tried them with a different amp (an older Accuphase, can't remember the model). It improved the highs but not much else. I'm willing to experiment with the DAC. In other system I heard major differences in soundstage width and depth with different DACs so maybe I'll treat myself with a present for my upcoming b-day and I'm welcoming any advice concerning that :)
     
  2. Superexchanger

    Superexchanger Friend

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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I was going to say toss that Hypex, but looks like you already did that. In terms of 3D sound, can you post a photo of your setup, speaker place, your room, etc. You don't have to go nuts with room treatments, but strategic placement of furniture and a few panels can do wonders. It depends upon what you are after and what you mean by 3D. Do you want expansiveness, a far away placed soundstage, a closer more intimate stage, layering and depth, imaging precision? The Arcam rDAC is ancient and was decent value proposition at the time it came out, but there's much better.

    Hard for any recommendations without a price range.
     
  4. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    Where do you live? Don’t splurge on an expensive DAC using your birthday as an excuse/incentive. If you live in the US, try to pick up a used Yggdrasil and it should show you, what you can expect to gain as you move up the DAC ladder, particularly in terms of the 3-D and depth. I have a feeling Yggdrasil might just be sufficient to quench your thirst on those aspects, because that’s kind of Yggdrasil’s forte. But in case the Yggdrasil doesn’t synergize with your setup in terms of tone or, you wish to have more of the goodness, then folks here will be able to point you in the right direction, as many members here have heard a Yggdrasil and other potent DACs.
     
  5. nylac

    nylac New

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    With regard to treatment, I did try one thing once: I padded all the listening room with blankets. I'd be ashamed to post any pics, it looked insane :) It did change the sound dramatically, it reminded me of the specific acoustics that libraries have, as an example the noise of the laptop's fan became untolerable. But sill no 3D :(

    As for the rDAC, I don't have it anymore. I have reasons to not give any details because the newer one is made by a brand that is praised here but mine was a flop, it had some issues that were only partially solved by the maker. I'm sorry but I won't open a Pandora's box by going into details. I'm not new to the Internet and I know how people react to criticism to something they love.

    Europe.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Don't overblanket! A strategic approach works better for real people homes.

    Since you are in EU, consider the ROCKNA Wavelight DAC. Expansive, deeply staged layering, holographic imaging and precise localization. Not cheap. For less, RME ADI2 if you are OK with AKM VELVET sound. At least will be expansive, but I don't think they are particularly 3D, but rather do the diffuse thing.

    You can crap on Schiit if the issues are legit and stated in earnest. No one cares. It's when folks troll - that's the problem. In general, I avoid recommending Schiit to folks in the EU.

    The problem is that you want awesome stuff and awesome stuff simply isn't cheap.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  7. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    Re. room treatment, my 2 cents. I had done some remodeling, put in a full-wall bookcase & cabinets across the shorter wall and put stereo/AV set-up in them. Was hugely disappointed, sounded very diffuse and reverberant. I built 2 60 cm x 120 cm panels with 5 cm polyester batting and carefully measured and placed each vertically at the center of the 1st reflection point on the side walls. Also put some 2.5 cm batting in the back of the shelves where the speakers sit. This made a tremendous difference. Don't know about 3D, I hear some stage depth, but width and height to me sound very good. With a well-mastered song, especially blues & jazz, voices and instruments are solidly positioned. For opera, it is pretty easy to hear differences from the hall used and mic placement.

    The downside is most pop music sounds odd, jumbled or disconnected. If I go to the back of the kitchen (open to the listening room), it all makes sense, you get that wall of sound.

    Panels can be made for crazy cheap, here at least. A bike shipping box, some batting and fabric to cover it all and you're good. 1st reflection points on side walls are the low-hanging fruit. If there is a solid rear wall and it's close to the listening position, probably that as well. @purr1n's comments are right on, be strategic, don't overdo it and kill off some sense of space.

    Note this is running off a Yamaha RX-A series AVR. I have some better gear I plan to try out, but there's no way electronics can make the same difference in a room that doesn't have some control over reflections.
     
  8. squishware

    squishware Friend

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    In my experience, moving the speakers away from the wall about half as far as they are apart from each other is a good start. Then fiddle with angles and slight distance adjustments. Symmetry in the distance to the side walls is also very effective strategy.
     
  9. nylac

    nylac New

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    No, it's not Schiit I want to crap on but the pun begs to be used :D No, seriously, I was almost certain that someone would think it's Schiit but it's not. I won't tell because it's a bigger can of worms than you'd think.

    The blanket padding was temporary, no sane person would leave it like that, not that I exclude the possibility that I'm insane. But it was impressive how much it changed the room acoustics, everything was just different, similar to an anechoic chamber (yes I was into a real one once, it was used for testing engines via sound analysis).

    As for room placement... as you likely know a typical apartment room in Europe is considerably smaller that in the US and if you consider all the factors there's not much to play with. They are maybe half meter from the back wall, almost 2 meters from the side walls and maybe 1.5 meter apart and this is is the long side of the room.

    I was half asleep yesterday so I forgot to post about price... maybe EUR 2000 but I'm considering used as for some reason I'm luckier with used than with new. As a random side note, I have 3 bikes and the single one with had a serious issue was the new one. So was with my audio gear.
     
  10. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    How far is your listening position from the wall behind you? Is it a wall, or an opening?
    With the speakers being 2m from the side walls, 1st reflection point on the side walls may not be as important as some absorption behind them and dealing with whatever is behind your listening position.
    Rather than blankets, if you can pick up a few meters of polyester batting at a fabric store, you can cut some rectangles and just Blu-tack them to the walls to see what they do for the sound
     
  11. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    You need to give us a more complete picture of your room and setup if you want serious help. We don’t even know how far you’re sitting from your speakers at this point, which IMO, is one of the most significant factors in soundstaging width and depth (in addition to distance of the speakers from the wall behind them). What else is in your room as well? Is it carpeted? Other furniture? Are the speakers symmetrical from the walls? Are you symmetrical from the walls? I would draw a rough picture of your space and post it along with a picture.

    I will say that the speakers being 1.5M apart is not that far apart to get a great soundstage. Especially if you’re sitting further away than that. Equilateral triangle is best. Also getting closer than equilateral will probably improve things. Toe the speakers in if you need to keep the high frequencies where you like them. Also, when you say your speakers are 1.5m into the room from the wall behind, is this to the back of the speaker, or the front?

    And just tell us which DAC you have currently. This is not a normal forum - there are no sacred cows here, honestly, no one is going to care or have their feelings hurt, guaranteed. Also, putting some tubes in your system like a tube preamp could help with soundstage width and depth - it certainly does in mine. I’m not sure your solid state amp is going to excel at this.

    I know some people want to immediately go towards treatments, but in my experience, unless your room and setup is horrible, a ton can be achieved without this. And treatments applied willy nilly when you don’t know what you’re doing have a low chance of working out unless you’re willing to experiment a LOT.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  12. nylac

    nylac New

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    I'm listening from a sofa (~2m wide) which is placed against a wall. I'll post a sketch of the room tomorrow.

    My listening position is ~2m from the front of the speakers. As I said, I'll post a drawing of the room tomorrow. I agree with you, based on my limited experience, room treatment is overrated, I've heard incredible soundstage in crappy rooms.

    And I'm terribly sorry but this will be the last thing I write about the current DAC. It's not from one of the usual suspects, it's discontinued, you've likely never listened to it, and although maybe they make some astonishing products, quality control seems to be an issue with small companies. Trust me, if I went into further details you'll al be like ohh, now I get it.
     

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