Marvey's DAC Chart of Awesomeness

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by The Alchemist, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Vinyl is euphonic. There's a ton of 70s rock that have had dumps of the original tapes (or had great reel to reel releases) where the early CD tape dump is more accurate than the still great (sometimes) sounding original LP such as Black Sabbath and The Stooges. People want music to sound better than it really does and refuse to accept what the recording actually sounds like.The worst was that guy on SteveHoffman who advocates burning a mishmash CD-R of various masters of Black Sabbath's debut in some perverse act of autistic historical revisionism. The album was recorded in a single day. It's the original metal album and doesn't sound that awful. Deal with it.

    Some albums never had good digital versions due to poor mastering choices, shoddy transfers, or major tape decay though. Popol Vuh and Bathory stuff can be stupidly expensive but many of those LPs truly do sound much better than the hilariously shitty CD versions.
     
  2. cooperpwc

    cooperpwc Friend

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    And actually I was listening to the deluxe CD edition of Black Sabbath just yesterday and it sounded pretty good, even the studio outtakes on disc 2. Metal sounding like metal is fine.
     
  3. shaizada

    shaizada Friend

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  4. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    That is quite interesting. The most important takeaway is that this guy believes that surface noise from the vinyl is what adds the perception of enhanced musicality. I wonder if this is psychoacoustics, or a form of unintentional dithering that is pleasant.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Might be worth trying and doing a comparison.

    I find his point on CD mastering being poor the most plausible.
     
  6. shaizada

    shaizada Friend

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    Plus, I see the Eggleston Ivy speakers in the background ($110k retail at the time!)...so surely he has got decent playback equipment to arrive at such conclusions ;)
     
  7. Andre Y

    Andre Y Friend

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    Stereo on vinyl is encoded as M+S. That is, one track on vinyl is L+R (left + right which is mono, but also called Mid after the miking technique), and the other is L-R (the difference between the channels, S for side in mic-speak). To recover the original signals, you add and subtract the M+S signals: (L+R) + (L-R) = 2*L, and (L+R) - (L-R) = 2*R.

    Given that, it's easy to see how vinyl can enhance channel separation and perceived ambience in the recording because its distortion mechanisms will operate on the L-R channel. That's how stuff like Dolby PLII, Lexicon Logic 7, and other matrix surround systems work, at their most basic levels (they do much more sophisticated things in addition to this). For example, there are some vinyl distortion mechanisms that can affect only certain frequency bands, so now you can boost or lower the channel separation on a frequency-dependent basis, and some of this enhancement can sound kind of awesome. There are similar things with the mono channel too.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I actually hear vinyl as consistently having less separation than digital. Things are more squished in the middle. Soundstage never seems to be as wide compared to good DACs.

    Depth and imaging precision can be all over the place depending upon DAC, output type, amp, phono-pre, cart, arm, VTA, VTF, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  9. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    But you like vinyl better?
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I actually don't like the overly wide stage from DACs. It's a matter of mastering though, so its a recording dependent.

    Also, I am pretty sure the left side of the groove is left and right side is right. There is no L+R / L-R encoding. Quadrophonia?

    P.S.

    There's no wiring or setup of the stylus coils or magnets to support MS decoding. Also, if MS encoding was used, the grooves would look
    very jaggy and exaggerated on one side and somewhat smooth on the other side since for most music since L-R wouldn't contain much. That would definitely NOT be optimal given the physical restrictions of the format. Need to think things through... Pretty sure I am right on this one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  11. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Soundstage isn't something I care too much about. I care far more about detail and focus. With vinyl, I can hear the bass completely articulated next to the piano while the trumpet is blaring on top while listening to Miles Davis. This is not something I get with my Yggdrasil with many different versions. Those three tend to blend together more (though mind you it's better than other DACs to be sure). It's the same experience I have at concert with a good speaker setup/soundboard guy, where you can hear each instrument and focus on it. Such a delight.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Bah, we're just hearing bass distortion and euphonic dithering from the surface noise.

    Funny how Mike Moffat is a total vinyl guy who's been chasing the sound of the original tape with his DAC designs for the last 30+ years.

    P.S.S. Thinking more. I finally get the MS L+R L-R angle. It has to do with vectors and angles. Haha. Pun intended. Will explain after I finish my meat pie and English ale.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  13. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    Although marketed primarily to the portable crowd, how do the CypherLabs DACs (Theorem/Solo) compare, where would they be placed on the chart?

    I'm currently using a Theorem 720 as my amp + DAC and want to upgrade by adding a dedicated amp or integrated amp/DAC. I want to gauge where my current DAC is perceived to sit on the chart in order to figure out which direction to go in, and now seems like a good time as any to upgrade.

    Using primarily LCD-X, SRH1540 and (more rarely) HD600.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I am not a big fan of the CypherLabs Theorem DAC. This is because there have been quite a few really good sounding DACs that have come out in the past year or so.

    I'll start with a little story: Alex Cavalli had the CypherLabs (the other was a Hugo) feeding his Liquid Carbon at CanJam last year. I did not think highly of that combination. People asked me what I initially thought of the Liquid Carbon, and I was like "meh" - until I realized that the sources Alex were using could have been the culprit (they were). I let LFF and another know about the situation, and those guys promptly removed the CypherLabs and Hugo DACs from Liquid Carbon amps, and replaced them with some LH units. Huge difference. I don't think the Liquid Carbon would have gotten the attention it did had those guys not replaced the CypherLabs and Hugo DACs that were on Alex's table. There's nothing offensive with the CypherLabs sound, but it seemed to make the Liquid Carbon kind of dead and boring sounding. To put it bluntly, the Theorem is about on par with the $79 Schiit Fulla. (The Fulla is OK/decent sounding, but a fantastic deal; but then again, I've only heard a prototype with a screwy negative rail.)

    The problem is that there isn't much out there in terms of self contained portables. The LH Geek Out V2 plus (or was it Infinity?) fits the bill, but I hate to mention LH because everyone seems to hate them (if not publicly, privately) and I wish LH would get its act 110% together like how Apple does. Come to think of it, the AK Jr and Queststyle portables are very good sounding. None of them are going to beat a good desktop like the Bifrost Multibit, which I think would be a good match for the headphones you mentioned, i.e. LCD-X, HD600.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The answer to this is that the stylus or cutter movement is not up/down for L and left/right for R. The whole thing gets rotated 45 degrees. Now after this rotation, if we look at the vectors strictly in terms of up/down and left/right movement, the up/down vector becomes the overall amplitude (L+R) and the left right motion is (L-R). So from this point of view, it appears to be MS encoding.

    However, the way we have to look at how the stylus looks at it: the amplitude vectors as perpendicular to 45 and 135 degree planes for L and R. There's a coil / magnet on each side at end of the cantilever, not one up top and one on the side. Therefore it is really an L and R system. Again, the grooves would probably look extremely fugged up if MS encoding were used.

    How did this thread become about vinyl? Moderator! Clean-up on this aisle!
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  16. Andre Y

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    Right, but the mechanical phenomena will affect things in an L+R and L-R way because the needle will be moving around in different directions in the groove. It doesn't know to move only along one direction, which you'd need to exclusively only affect L, for example. Both L & R are mechanically coupled, so both will be affected by the various physical phenomena of a suspended needle moving through the groove.

    Also, L-R can be reduced as well as increased, so not all soundstage things will get bigger.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yes, there will be limitations on L R separation. Effective crosstalk will be high, especially in the bass. which requires massive movement. I guess you can do it, but needle might fly off the record.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  18. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    Thanks for the feedback. I did try the iFi Micro iDSD, and although it drove my headphones with appreciable authority (compared to Theorem amp), it just sounded dull - I missed the richness of tone (musicality?) of the Theorem.

    I'm not looking specifically for a portable solution, although that's what I'm currently using. I'd like to try an Oppo HA-1. It seems to be priced well, has very convenient connectivity options, but practically everything I've read indicates its built-in DAC is a major weakness (although some say it's a better than average SABRE implementation and favorably compared to the X-Sabre). If I went that route I'd plan on eventually adding the Bifrost Multibit (or Gungnir Multibit), if the HA-1 amp itself is considered competent in its price bracket.

    I've also read good things about the McIntosh MHA100, but even then people say it deserves a better DAC (a la D100/D150) at its price. I did listen to an LCD-3f on one before when I was considering the LCD-X, didn't seem that impressive considering the cost. (Just an example, too damn expensive for me anyway).

    I guess that's the challenge of aiming for self-contained in the first place, if eventually one wants/needs to add a different DAC sometime soon afterwards.

    I've got it in my head that designing something around the Bifrost Multibit or Gungnir Multibit is the right path, seems to be great price/performance. Then it's just a matter of matching up the right SS amp (different thread).
     
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Stop blaming the format and blame your gear and studio recordings. There are infinite ways to f**k up a recording and so many records that are decently recorded but under mixed or mastered to just sound good enough on neutral studio monitors in a treated room. The engineers and artist often just don't care how it sounds on a crappy, euphonic, or both setup. They certainly aren't checking the panning of their mix on headphones that have an artificially large soundstage such as the AKG K7whatever and HD 800. Users of those headphone tend to favor amps and DACs that push the soundstaging even further out so they're not doing themselves any favors listening to hard-panned guitar and jazz music with them. Something about this needs to be on the various top lists. Resolution of low level detail, frequency response, and distortion figures are not the only yardsticks of quality and neutrality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I actually feel that CD, when it first came out, may have caught a lot of mastering engineers by surprise (or that studios were being cheap). The fact is, you do have the master for the medium. Those with a collection of early CDs can tell you this. Also, by the time CD came out, the phonograph had already benefited from been in existence and undergone refinement for over 90 years.

    Advances in technology (digital multitrack recording, post processing, mixing, equalization, effects, etc.) that allow a person with minimal training to crank out the work have may also eroded sound quality. Think about how many remasters these days suck. The term remaster has become a joke among audiophiles who know that they are really repackaged cash cows for the studios.

    Vinyl has had a resurgence. The reasons why recent vinyl releases have had better mastering jobs than their CD counterparts may be because the mastering engineers are no longer under pressure from the studios to compress the shit out of the recordings for portable, car, or computer playback, and EQ for iBuds.

    Also mastering for vinyl takes specialized knowledge of the format's limitations (e.g. the conversations I had with Andre Y. highlights these. Panning bass all the way to one channel will screw things up.) Whereas a monkey with limited training and experience can master for digital with a $59 software package. You guys have to remember that I work in the entertainment industry. There is huge pressure to cut costs, unless you are Taylor Swift... And even then, if you are Taylor Swift, the results may still not be so spectacular.

    That fact is, and I can only attest to my own personal experience on my speaker and headphone systems, digital and vinyl, that it all matters: gear, medium (direct and indirect effects of such), audio engineering, etc. It's never a simple black and white one general thing is better than other. I hope this view is pretty clear by now; after all, I have provided very specific examples to illustrate this.

    Finally, I'd like to conclude by reminding everyone that people without the experience of what's being talked about not jump into the fray. Yes, its a nicer forum now without the risk of a certain person crapping all over your face and ridiculing you; but spewing BS about things which you have had no direct subjective experience (but rather read about or came to conclusions using thought experiments) is not acceptable here. It was totally not tolerated on Changstar and one on the good things I'd like to carry over here.

    One is always allowed to express that they find certain things hard to believe, but there is always a line. I want SBAF to be lead by people with actual experience; not people who want to argue points a la HF. I'd respect the opinions of someone who has heard two pieces of $89 gear they have. I do not respect people making statements about stuff they have not heard or are not even willing to try based on "science" or theory. I've always said, why do you think the Wyrd is called the Wyrd?

    It's not specific to this thread, but something I have noticed throughout lately. I do not want SBAF to consist of useless Head-Fi like banter by people who have not heard what they or other people are talking about.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015

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