Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    My wife and I own and run an a medical practice - she is a physician (we hire others) and I run the business side of things. We do a certain percentage of indigent care every year/week. Why do you ask?
     
  2. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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    I work with ex-chronic homeless with severe mental illness and it's rare that someone nowadays mentions the moral/ qualitative imperative in serving that population. At our program, we've also been able to get some good quantitative outcomes by helping clients access preventative healthcare instead of going to the ER.
     
  3. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    It's hardly mentioned because we (in America) don't have any common anthropology/moral ground and the resultant commonality of language in which to have a conversation about it. Many blame "the cultural wars", but I more specifically point to the breakdown of the "protestant consensus" in the cultural/sexual revolution of the 1960's - whether you agreed with it or not it was the currency of political and moral thought where people could at least understand each other.

    We instead speak in materialist terms and lean heavily on "equality" - an equality disconnected from any underlying anthropology/morality that is even acknowledged, let alone "true". So we flail around trying to make do with language and frames of reference that reduce humanity and all our wounds/brokenness (physical and mental) that we all experience and live with to purely quantitative/materialist terms, even if most of us are not homeless, severally mentally ill, etc.
     
  4. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    That is based on a far reaching assumption that you know those variables, and know how to equalize them, Is it really that simple in case of human beings?. Just turning the right knobs? Even if it was possible?

    That where I think you will see the great divide, very similar to what F Hayek said about planned economy in "The road to serfdom". The planner can never have sufficient information to turn a positive outcome because this information is only available locally, and to the people who are actually making things happen. The solution is not better planned economy, but just getting rid of it. The countries of the former Soviet block experienced it first hand.

    The same approach is behind the redistribution to level the playing field.
    We can all agree that redistribution of income is inevitable and just, we have to take care of people in need.
    But do you know one complex social problem that was solved by redistribution? The answer is always no ,but that because it was never enough redistribution.
    Well.. in Soviet block there was never enough planning.
     
  5. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    Accounted for it morally how? They either created monstrous justifications for inequality that relied on brute force to put down the “have nots,” or they tried to construct a somewhat more fair, somewhat more equal society that would allow for popular acceptance and peace. Essentially every prosperous society today falls into the latter camp, including the U.S. The debate is always about how we provide for that outcome.

    I have no idea what you’re getting at here besides just randomly labeling things you don’t like stuff that you think sounds scary. Plenty of decidedly non-Marxist moral philosophy has dealt with these issues for centuries. Read Adam Smith on the “linen shirt” justification for leveling up the bottom or his views on justified and unjustified inequalities.

    Indeed, in the 20th Century, the two great American philosophers of distributive justice were Rawl and Nozick, neither Marxist. Despite being on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum, they both agreed some amount of welfare state was necessary for precisely the reasons I outlined.

    First, it’s highly misleading to label DPM a “liberal.” He went to work for Nixon after Johnson and opposed most “liberal” policies for the rest of his life. Second, he’s been dead for almost 20 years, and the non-partisan, current studies I linked to provide quantitative measures of (low) mobility in the U.S.

    You’re lumping the Great Society — Medicaid, Medicare, VISTA, Peace Corps, Food Stamps, etc. — with gulags? This is totally unserious. I might as well say “your post and Hitler’s rhetoric,” as if they’re remotely similar. (They’re obviously not.)


    Are you suggesting we don’t know that people prefer a better school to a shittier one, healthcare to no healthcare, some money to no money? Everyone wants the better half of those things for their own kids. (If people really believed all anyone needed to succeed was gumption, they wouldn’t pay through the nose for good schools for their own kids, etc.)

    We also do know from plenty of research here and in other countries that some basic things lower poverty and increase mobility. The U.S. is the outlier on poverty and mobility. Indeed, nobody really denies we can eliminate poverty with a UBI or NIT. (Studies show Americans vastly underestimate the amount of inequality and vastly overestimate the amount of mobility in the U.S., then are shocked when they find out the reality.)

    Once again, there’s this weird reverse Godwin’s law happened where any mention of “redistribution” (which, once again, happens all the time, even with laws not explicitly aimed at changing the income distribution) is met with “gulags”!
     
  6. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I meant to respond to this in my post above. But it’s great that you do this. I don’t see the distinction between moral and material here, though. You’re trying to improve their material well-being (health is about as basic materially as you can get) for a moral reason.

    Certainly, for some of them, it’s going to make a difference in their lives. Sure, some will not follow through with something you tell them to do. (It’s not as if every rich person follows their doctor’s orders, is it?) Many of them will just have lives of poverty, only now without a certain medical issue.

    But healthcare alone also isn’t supposed to eliminate poverty or suffering. Neither is education (even though we pretend schools can somehow transform the whole of society). They’re all just small pieces of trying to provide a certain suite of basic opportunities and standard of living to everyone, “deserving” or not.
     
  7. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    This is just your moral evaluation (what is and is not "monstrous"), not theirs. What is your moral story of humanity? How do you account for its non-universality, and how others do not believe that modern progressive/liberal society is some kind pinnacle of morality?

    Assuming you mean Rawls, his Kantian "justice" is not convincing outside very narrow circles, relying as it does on Kant's particular flavor of Cartesian metaphysics. Some sort of presumptive Marxism is much much more influential in current discussions and policy (e.g. BLM and "critical race theory"), 19th-21st century history, etc.

    I am unfamiliar with Nozick and can't comment. I am convinced by MacIntyre and others who see fundamental "incommensurability" among the various moralities within modern culture/polity. As a kind of reply to Rawls the title of one of his books is "Whose Justice, Which Rationality?"

    Ok, then what is the outline of redistribution you are arguing for? What is the moral/anthropological philosophy behind it?

    If by redistribution you mean a real school voucher funding (tax distribution) system, so that everyone can (if they so choose) send their kids to schools that actually work on academic & moral/cultural levels, non-governmental intervened health care, such as the death of "The Affordable Healthcare Act" (which is in the last analysis cost based rationing), the legalization of ALL drugs so we can end this war and empty our broken prison system, and the like - well then I will embrace this sort of "redistribution"

    You seem upset that the term redistribution does not mean what you think it means, or should. I find it odd that you would find the normative Marxist context/history of the term to be anything other than problematic.

    Actually, while health has an embodied, material aspect, I don't agree well-being is primarily defined at this level. This is an emphasis sure, but it is an important distinction because my "moral reasoning" is not the same as what you say it is. It is hard to talk about this however because behind most discussions of it is an assumed body/psyche/spirit split (Rawls is an obscure example) of one sort or another.

    I can agree with this.

    edit: while I can agree with in general with a society of laws, functioning schools/healthcare, and the like, I don't agree civil/moral society is primarily these things or that the usual technocratic policy tweaking found in liberal western democracies is even effective on their own terms, let alone in principle...
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  8. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    The thing is, we do, and it's called the rentier class, i.e., those that can afford to live exclusively (and often lavishly) off merely the interest gained on property and capital, and/or combined with the speculative interests of those who seek to profit on the market frictions in trading presumptions of value to shareholders of those capital and property assets. Making money off those who make money off those who own stuff.
     
  9. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I’m a little confused by this, as it’s pretty radical cultural relativism, which isn’t what I expected based on your earlier post about “Protestant consensus.” But I feel pretty comfortable with embracing Enlightenment views that things like slavery, monarchy, serfdom, etc. are immoral.

    I’m objecting to the term “redistribution” in the sense that it’s all distribution. For example, Bill Gates would be hurt a lot more by looser IP laws than by going back to ‘50s tax rates on the rich. Everything from zoning to trade to criminal law makes some people richer and other people poorer than under alternative policies, even if those policies weren’t explicitly designed to redistribute income. The government sets the rules of the game, so to speak, in ways that shape how the market distributes income from the very start.

    I’m glad we can agree on this!
     
  10. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I just noticed your Amir quote signature, @RobS. Bwahahahaha.
     
  12. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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  13. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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  14. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    His avatar triggers me every time I see it. Good grief that post. The arrogance from such an ignoramus, just wow.
     
  15. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    It's a recognition of the our present historical and cultural circumstances. I am much less impressed with the Enlightenment than you are - it's internal principals are not responsible for overturning slavery (unless you include the normative morality of Christianity as central to it), though I don't have to tell you history is messy.

    As far as the inter-relationship between government/law, economy, and morality, your right. That said, I don't adhere to enlightenment/modern anthropology, and recognize the incoherence of "multiculturalism" and classical liberalism's attempt to hold it all together with ideas like Rawlsian justice, vague notions of "equality" , etc. At the end of the day all it really has is a faith in a technocratic prosperity and materialism, and the bloody twentieth century is example enough that this can fail spectacularly.

    Good conversation!
     
  16. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I definitely agree with this. I tend to think Enlightenment ideas are the best we have, holistically speaking, among the alternatives. But I think Enlightenment individualism, in both left and right forms, has serious flaws. I also don’t think that material well-being will provide spiritual fulfillment.
     
  17. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    I don't have anything new nationally, but I do have more local Florida Man stories I can share to all. When I mean Local, I mean Jacksonville.

    Shortly after our City put up the Mandatory Mask order, the City got sued by a local business with a help of a State Rep (which you can guess which side he is on) due to "a local business owner who says he has been negatively impacted by the mandate."

    What is funny about this lawsuit is our City Mayor is also the former head of the FL GOP (which the mask order got overwhelming support in a GOP-dominated City Council), which next month the big Convention is here. Local Media is trying to review if the Mandatory Mask order is even allowed per City ordinance or not, and the Mayor got pissed. On top of that (which might make @robot zombie go uber meh), schools must open up next month (with some local decisions can be made).

    And the same Mayor is now self-quarantining due to being with someone near who had the virus. And next month once again we are having the Convention, and people are freaking out per local sources.

    I have a shit ton of popcorn and alcohol, and a big ass sofa. I'm waiting for more FL moments like these.....
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Strangely enough, I've personally experienced more racism of this sort in the liberal bastion of the SF Bay Area than any other place in this country. I have my own reasons why this is - part of it is because it's Marin, one of the few places in the Bay Area where minorities haven't "invaded". San Jose was a little like this too decades ago when it was still mostly apple orchards.

    As for the wanker Michael Lofthouse, I can excuse him. The dude's an alcoholic and needs help.
    upload_2020-7-12_10-41-11.png

    Folks like Park Ranger Karen are lot more scary to me. Outside demeanor of friendliness and correctness (I'm certain she didn't vote for Trump), but as an company culture / HR officer, I'd never know how she might f**k me over if I happened to work at the same company.
     
  19. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    Haha, we've got our own flavor of it, too.

    Originally got this wrong, 5 kids ride a golf cart into a gated community... let in by security because one of the black girls is the granddaughter of a resident there. Man-Karen sees them in that golf cart on the road and decides stalk them in his car and that leads to this bizarre exchange. He's like a creepier Zimmerman. Wish I coulda seen the part where black grandpa got into it with him.

    It's weird to think that every day I encounter people with brain anomalies like this and don't even realize.

    Found the article: https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/...cial-tensions-prompts-calls-for-change--video

    Also had an interesting, hopeful ending, if anybody's up for that: https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/...amilies-lsquoi-take-total-responsibilityrsquo

    Seems a bit hammy, but eh, who knows. Hard to tell these days. All you ever get with any of these is the point of total escalation and maybe 2-3 versions of a story. Around here especially, there is more subtlety. People very rarely say what they mean, and then you find out what they actually meant some other time. But on the flipside this can lead to overreactions in a vacuum. Whatever the reason, it was still crazy inappropriate and I have a hard time believing he would've come up with such a poignantly melodramatic apology if he hadn't been filmed, talked/written about in the local news, placed on leave from his govt job... all of this stuff. He woulda just buried it and dodged glances from grandpa.

    It really raises some questions about handling stuff like this in this way. Sometimes it is super entertaining and maybe people should be more worried about how they treat other people, but I often walk away feeling like I have no way of really understanding the situation. I feel like it's the type of thing where all it takes is a few bits of info that people run with to put you over the fire, and from there it doesn't matter what actually happened, you're going to have a very hard time explaining yourself and shit is on the line... I don't wanna say I necessarily feel for it, but more that I expect that even someone who's more innocent than not would look guilty no matter how they approached it. But I suppose to be in that position to begin with you have... made mistakes.

    Some cases are also much more obvious than others. Sometimes the witches are obviously real. Other times I feel like a middle-school dean trying to figure out who started the fight, while only seeing the end. In this case, we're talking an older man vs 15-year-olds, so he has the defacto accountability. One way or another he fucked up pretty badly by being creepy and weird in his actions and choice of wording... but his actual intent will never be known now.

    I dunno, even when it is sort of justified to air it out I'm not sure it's good to normalize this sort of proxy vindication. It's a question of what is being encouraged. I think it's more productive to get angry at the assholes you DO know than the ones you don't. Charity starts at home. I guess for the people who have to deal with the crazy, this is their donation, haha.

    Still just bizarre behavior. You can't act like that and not know how you come off, especially these days... it's kind of a big deal on multiple levels. It's as though people like this live in a bubble where they are perceiving and interacting with a totally different reality. And then things don't go how they think and they're bamboozled by it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  20. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    If you don’t think Black Lives Matter is a “Marxist takeover destroying America’s landmarks” and you have an iDevice, you should download this shortcut.

    (Link to shortcut at the shortcuts gallery website)

    https://shortcutsgallery.com/shortcuts/black-lives-matter/

    “This shortcut sends emails to the right people to hold the murderers of George Floyd, Collins Khosa, Tony McDade, and Regis Krochinski-Paquet accountable and to investigate the disappearance of Justin Cosby.
    Update (6/5/20): Added Breonna Taylor and James Scurlock”

    Totally changes what I thought shortcuts were capable of. Amazing.
     

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