My problem with HD650 fags and [poor] redditors

Disclaimer: This is a stream of consciousness. I am simply generalizing and will paint this crowd with a very broad brush. Do not focus on the details of my statements but the grand concepts. I will hurt feelings and step on toes – hard. I believe the general attitude does not only does this apply to audio, but to life in general.


After attending the amazing LA meet, I’ve had a chance to review on the failures. It took me awhile to pinpoint the source of this malaise. Then I realized these failures were not due to the organization and logistics, but due to a certain group of attendees – the HD650 fags and poor redditors. This meet had some of the best setups in the world (most likely) and all these guys did was huddle up into a corner and circlejerk each other about the greatness of their pinnacle of mid-fi. You HAD the opportunity to pick the minds and ears of very experienced enthusiast and listen to very well matched setups, but you did shit you could have done at home. This is the equivalent of going to a car meet and huddling up with a bunch of Civics talking about the differences in your soda can exhausts, how many more horsepower you got from the stickers, and how many pounds you saved from putting holes into the rear bumper while there’s a guy that brought a V12 Ferrari for everyone to try!

I also sensed a feeling of fear – a fear of hearing greatness. Or was it denial that audio couldn’t possibly be better than the HD650? Or was it envy that others were more “fortunate” to obtain expensive gear? Either way, both head-fi and reddit both suffer from the same cancer – the poor man’s mentality. Because of that, there is a lack of appreciation of nice things because of one of the above.

To be clear, this is not the hate for poor people. This is a hate for the poor man’s mentality – a mentality of powerlessness towards the outcome of one’s life. This is the same plague that is progressivism that is destroying the foundation of America – individualism and freedom. Listening to someone’s high end rig should be a liberating and motivating experience that trigger questions like “I want this and what do I need to do to have this?” or “What can I do to fund this?”. A taste for the finer things in life should not discourage one to pursue a better life.

That is my problem with these HD650 fags and poor redditors. My problem is that they can’t see the opportunities in their lives, being content with powerlessness, and being envious instead of appreciative – having the wrong attitude. The ones who can change their attitude towards optimism manifest into self-empowerment and success.


Ultimately a purpose of a meet is to share our love for audio. Attendees went to listen and "exhibitors" brought gear for people to try. Somehow people forget this...

 

I couldn't make the meet, but as someone who started on Reddit, and still lingers there when bored, I definitely see this and it's frustrating.

It's certainly one thing to stick to a hard budget and do the best you can for the price, and if that means an m50x, or a HD598, or whatever that's totally cool. But the notion that anything above a Fiio E10k and typical Mid-fi headphone is a lie, "snakeoil", nothing could ever be better (even though I've never heard it) is naive, frustrating, and dangerous to the growth of any individual or community in the hobby.

 

lol k

Edit: I can't speak to reddit, I spend no time there.

 

Some people get a thrill from going on vacation. Others don't.

Some people like to test drive new cars even if they can't afford it. Others don't.

Fear is an element, sure, but maybe not in the way that you think. People are shy or nervous, and in large groups tend to stick to their own. There's comfort/protection in that. All the big kids are playing with shiny expensive toys that are so far out of their reach they can't even comprehend it. Seriously, let that sink in for you mooks who think dropping a couple grand on a rig is acceptable when many would need to scrape pennies for a year.

Maybe a couple newcomers will puff up enough courage to reach out and try, but most will actually need an inviting hand. The big kids can't be so preoccupied with themselves; they need to invite the others in.

 

I've only organized small meets so we don't quite get the elitist thing, but I literally spend most of my meets socializing and introducing people and asking them if they've tried this or that gear.


Non-headphone related, but I've also organized larger activity type things, and you get the same exact thing. Cliques form. Old generation vs new generation. Experienced vs newbies, blah blah blah. Sometimes the new kids will reach out because that's the best way for them to learn, but people are for the most part shy and cautious creatures. Newcomers are afraid they won't be able to meet the expectations of the experienced people. They are afraid to disappoint because they can't do A or can't notice B.

They made it to the event. Great. It's easy to sell on the enthusiasm of an event and get them in the door, but then they arrive and they realize/they think they're in over their heads.

What did you do other than bring your shiny toys and sense of superiority? Did you look at them as equals or did you look down at them for being lesser? Did you invite them in past the door? Did you bring them into the fold? Did you let them try and not judge if they didn't know what to do/listen for/expect?

Other than sit on your throne, what did you do to nurture the community?

 

i think there's a question of relevance, or perceived relevance of high end setups. a feeling of... i can't possibly go there myself so why bother listening to it. i do think this is a trap, because there is much to be learned from well matched setups, and certainly much to be appreciated as well. the biggest favor you can do for yourself at meets is listen to stuff you usually can't listen to as a way to discover what is possible, learn what pleases you, and set your sights towards that goal, even if by approximation. or alternatively decide where along the diminishing returns curve you want to sit happily ever after.

i definitely agree with @Armaegis that there is also a boys club feeling that can scare folks off, a "us" and "them" divide in this case defined by like expertise or simply folks that have known each other a long time and those that haven't... i wasn't at the meet so i can't comment, but sbaf has always felt very inviting and friendly to me. that said, my wife thinks i'm an extrovert so there's that...so yeah i think promoting inclusiveness and bringing people in is a good idea for the less extroverted among us.

 

Well I guess count yourself lucky you're not one of them? Also, grow up and ditch the fag insult, before you preach.

[Edit] Err...sorry, 5 beers. But think about it.

 

I just find it funny that in the same post that laments the death of freedom and individualism (apparently the 650 is a progressivist headphone!), ohhgourami is berating people for choosing to spend their time in the way that they like.

I wasn't at the meet so I don't know how things played out. From the impressions it seemed like a lot of people heard a wide variety of gear. From the smaller meets I've been to, most people have no problem hearing all different sorts of setups. And given that there are tons of TOTL amps and headphones and turntables and whatnot discussed here daily, without some mid-fi 650 brigade barging in and trying to shut things down, I'm inclined to believe that this is mostly bellyaching.

A lot of us here have and love the 650. Some people want to get the most out of that headphone instead of trying to move up the ladder. It's not a crime, it's not some moral or intellectual or philosophical deficiency. If someone feels the 650 is all they want and need, is berating them going to change their minds?

 

While I understand the main point of this post, I don't think the derogatory terms work in your favor. Instead of reading your argument, I tend to get lost in your ignorance.

Hd650 has a following as it comes at a lower price point and you can hear significant differences as you upgrade sources and amps. It also is one of the better values in the hobby in a price to performance aspect. I find it to be a great headphone that I continue to go back to, even though I own several other newer more expensive sets of cans.

I can understand how someone with a carefully crafted system worth thousands of dollars can feel slighted if his system is passed over by some newer to the hobby, but not everyone has the same background as you do. The civic people enjoy conversing about civics as they have a shared experience and a common bond. I am sure a bunch of people who have never met before in real life were looking to bond over something, just as the he6 bros did.

I'm all for you opinion that the hd650 is forgettable mid-fi, even if I disagree. I'm all for your opinion that you need $10k of gear to drive tour headphone. I just think it's bonkers you putting others down when they likely see you as just as crazy, but decided to keep their brash opinions to themselves.

 

I can sort of understand where you're coming from. There's a whole bigger world than just HD650s out there, especially when it comes to speakers. It just so happens that it's really easy to get a good sounding HD650 setup without having to spend tons of money.

I only recently just started appreciating the HD800s again now that I have better gear. I've realized what I've been missing out this entire time. Unfortunately it's not easy to get the HD800s to sound good. You have to throw so much money at it, and you need to know what you're trying to get out of them. This scares people off.

@ohhgourami I've seen your progression of amps/pre-amps/dacs from the CS days and it has taken you a tremendous amount of time and money to get where you are now. I only got to listen to your setup briefly and while it isn't my kind of sound, I appreciated the things it did over a hd650 setup.

One of the goals that I always have when I organize the NY meets is to expose people to some great gear and for everyone to interact with each other. Despite having 3 or 4 pairs of HD650s at the meet on Saturday, we had a ton of other headphones as well. The HD650s are a great reference point for determining how good a dac/amp setup is and to compare with other headphones. In addition, we had 5 different pairs of speakers that people got to listen to. I'm sure that we were able to get people interested in speakers if they weren't before. If you want people to see the world beyond the HD650s, show them. Telling them just isn't enough.

@ultrabike LOL yes. Once I was done with the Campfire Audio table, I pretty much spent the rest of my time socializing.

Anyways if we want to make a comparison to other hobbies, I have a 2007 Corolla. I know that there's tons of better and more expensive cars out there but I'm simply not interested in them. I guess you can call this being content with mediocrity but it doesn't matter much to me.

 

Hi poor person here. I think that sometimes it's okay to be content with what you have, especially when each step upwards is even a bigger expense. And then at some point diminishing returns probably kick in, and then either find yourself spending hundreds to shave off the few grams of your bike seat or just learn to appreciate what you have under your budget. And I honestly don't think many people out there get budget-allocating enlightment stemming from listening to someone else's rig. But more importantly:

Please elaborate, this is infinitely more interesting

 

You make good points that have already been discussed in other circles. I've even wondered for a while if I was alone in noticing some of this. However, FWIW (and probably not much) your approach in broaching these topics and choice of wording, IMO, greatly diminishes the validity and impact of your points. But that aside, offline, others have mentioned their sense of a reflexive anti-TOTL gear mentality within certain crowds so it hasn't just been me. And this is very different than expectation bias. But whatever the case and the reasoning, we've simply shrugged it off and haven't been deterred from enjoying something based on this type of behavior. And, like you say, it is quite a shame that fear or whatever the reason deters someone from tasting caviar and enjoying it in the moment, even though perhaps they're never going to eat caviar again.

 

This phenomenon you speak of is not isolated to this hobby only. I guess I haven't seen a whole lot in my day but it's not exactly a fight or argument you can change anything about. Is it a good thing or bad thing? What does it matter, build your super audio rig and hang out with frens.

 

Sure, it kinda is! But there's a slight difference between enjoying the caviar in the moment, and setting up a Four Year Plan to start a fish farm and gut pregnant sturgeons daily.

 

I wasn't at the meet, and @ohhgourami didn't really go into detail. I'll just give my impressions of what I think goes on with newbies at meets.

For newbies these meets are scary. Half the time you barely know anyone there and the people you do know you are meeting face to face for the first time. If you throw some "poor redditor" in a room with setups reaching into the 5 f'ing digits, you probably shouldn't be surprised when they won't touch it without explicit permission given. You want these guys to try these great setups and experience what the hobby has to offer at the upper echelons? Approach them about it and offer them a listen. You think some 18 year old jackass is just going to plop an HE-6 on his head that's plugged into a massive speaker amp like its normal? Besides the obvious and reasonable social anxiety they'd be feeling, besides the obvious fear of breaking something worth more than their car, and besides overwhelming nature of a big meet like that, you have to consider how much easier it is to just stick with gear and people that you know.

That said, the absolute venom that gets spewed at people with high end setups outside of niche communities like these means these people have to exist in fairly large number. @jacq is a user with a really nice setup and has always been extremely humble about it on Reddit, but she can't post a picture of it without cowards resorting to shit talking in the imgur comments. Whether that's the reddit community or some abortion of a community on imgur itself, I don't know. I can't really give a good reason why a large portion of newbies and specifically redditors feel like they need to validate their budget setups by denying the worth of higher end setups. It boggles the f'ing mind why you'd waste your time being so closed minded and childish. The $15 KSC75 doesn't become any less unreasonably good for the money because Focal's Utopia is an incredible achievement.

The HD650 thing has always been odd for me. I can give dozens of reasons why the HD650 is just mid-fi, but at the end of the day I also can't see any clear upgrade from it for someone who really loves its tonality. I don't blame people for throwing money at it to elevate that tonality they love as much as possible. Now it does piss me off with the ultimate scaling and perfect tonality memes, but that has little to do with the HD650 and more to do with people in general feeling that they have to justify what they like with f'ing hyperbole. If newbies and "poor redditors" are taking the HD650 praise too literally then that's an interesting conversation for this site, specifically, to have.

 

Did the people you're referencing actually huddle up into a corner with a "fear of hearing greatness?" Genuine question, I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Or was it just that they all had HD650s in common, wanted to share their experiences with other owners who they could relate to, and that was what they were most interested in and comfortable with, given their relative inexperience?

I agree with this in the context of attitude, but equating people who, for whatever reason, primarily listened to HD650s at an audio meet with feeling powerless, envious, and incapable of seeing opportunities in their lives is a bit much.

As for Reddit... there are many of us who moved from there to SBAF specifically because we desired a community that was more open to discussion of higher-end equipment and a much higher SNR.