Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    I guess you know about this:

    https://en-de.neumann.com/ma-1

    People who tried it seem mostly very satisfied with the results.
     
  2. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

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    That's the one yes. Coupled with their KH750 sub it should be fantastic - it's also a closed box so should provide the tight dry bass of the ATCs and their KH310 which I love.
     
  3. seamon

    seamon Acquaintance

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    Currently running a pair of Genelec 8020D for nearfield. They are a little fatiguing for me. I am considering a pair of PSI Audio A14-M Broadcast. Anyone heard the A14-M?

    Needs to be transportable so height should be around 250mm if anyone has any other suggestions.
     
  4. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

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    Neumann KH80 Dsp - bit more refined and calm in the upper registers, good bass for it's size, plus it DSP can be room/desk adjusted
     
  5. Luigi Pichardo

    Luigi Pichardo New

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    I have the Genelec 8040B's, considering my friend who does a lot of mixing has the 6.5'' Yorkville studio monitors: https://www.long-mcquade.com/13990/...earfield-Powered-Studio-Reference-Monitor.htm
    I thought going for a 6.5'' is the ideal size whether professionally or casually to get a proper impactful studio monitor experience, even sitting right on the desk.

    I haven't tried the 8330's or 8030's but from what I can tell from reviews years ago if I recall is that they may not have quite the full experience as the 6.5'' 8040B's.

    The 8040's I find to be quite nice sounding and it's interesting you mentioned the HiFi diffuse sound, I think I might know what you mean by that but I'm curious if you can elaborate as I don't have any HiFi reference speakers with that kind of description to compare with. My guess is the integration of the sound regardless of genres seems to nicely diffuse the sound in a way to not sound too unforgiving and kind of embellishes the sound in a way to make the recording sound very good and the weaknesses of the mix ironed out and sounding a bit too good compared to the work that needs to be done.

    I can definitely see the Genelec's unappeal for mastering and processional use in the sense you are trying to search for flaws and the flaws seem to be not highlighted as much with these speakers. They definitely resolve though and have a lot of dynamics, so for casual listening to finished recordings they are delightful to listen to near-field.

    Perhaps the individual tonal quality could be too embellished if I could only guess the downside to these speakers, a hint of warmth or embellishment to each of the notes which may pretty up the sound a bit too much, but that of course for me hard to guess without having other monitors to compare to, and perhaps that embellishment is what offers a bit more musicality to the speakers compared to other monitors as it sacrifices realness which may be a plus depending on how much detail and live-like sound a person wants.

    Considering that the Genelec's have metal dome tweeters they sound very good, I can only imagine what soft dome tweeters would sound like.

    I've heard relatively good things about the Neumanns so regardless you should be happy with those.

    For a mid-field experience I am currently searching for something along the lines of the Graham LS6 or something that would be ideal for a living room setup. I think the Genelec's are good for movies in a mid-sized living room, but for music they definitely are only ideal for short-field listening.

    Anyway, that HiFi diffuse, I'm trying to figure if that is what I am more looking for in a bigger setup or not. I'll probably just have to end up auditioning the LS6's in the end to see what I am after or look into the appeal of high fidelity speakers vs. studio monitors.
     
  6. Pharmaboy

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    A friend of mine is taking delivery of Graham LS6's in the next 1-2 weeks. He'll use them for 2-channel audio in a moderate sized living room. I'll be interested to hear what he says.

    As for me, I'm deep in the weeds of audiphile nervosa (speaker division): my new obsession is elderly but renowned-for-sound sealed/acoustic suspension 2-ways by KEF (model 103.2). My college roommate was given a pair of the original version as a graduation present (that was years ago--there were dinosaurs in the street, not cars). I've known about these for years but only recently realized the updated/version-2s are still out there, working away and making sound people praise. So I'm trying my best to get a pair to try in my desktop system.

    Is it possible they'll be too big for the desktop? Yup. Is it possible these speakers (not voiced for nearfield use) won't sound as good nearfield as they do midfield? Yup. Do I care about anything but just getting them & hearing them IMS? Nope.

    The ATCs have shown me how superior a sealed/acoustic suspension speaker is for my desktop--and these KEFs are on of the very few out there w/an 8" mid/woofer.
     
  7. Luigi Pichardo

    Luigi Pichardo New

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    Nice. Let me know how that goes, does he have the floor standers (LS6f's) or the regular LS6 bookshelf pair? I think I read the floorstanders have more bass, will have to find that review again.

    Curious if his chain is different then the Schitt chain with amp and DAC, I think my only quip for these is getting the bass right to a good enough extent and perhaps adding a subwoofer to compensate for that.

    That moderate living room setup is what I am going for.
     
  8. Pharmaboy

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    He's getting the bookshelf versions. His chain is definitely different: has a transport/CD player & DAC by Rega (not vintage/not recent, either); and amp is maybe MacIntosh (I'll find out more when he puts the system together).

    I would be more interested in the LS6 bookshelf model myself if it was sealed/acoustic suspension. But instead it's ported with a rather large port in the back of the speaker; that's all wrong for my desktop system where I can't get the back of speaker further than ~1 ft from from wall (that's why sealed speakers work better here--they're less finicky re placement than ported speakers seem to be).
     
  9. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

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    For the Genelecs i think they just spread the sound out too much, which leads to bit of a diffuse feeling, or perhaps it's something to do with attack/decay overhang in combination with the metal tweeter and massive bass port.. not quite sure.. However, the DSP corrected Genelec 8330 takes fairly good care of its problems and cleans things up so it's easier to mix on them, but I still find them "Genelec" sounding.

    The Neumann has a superior design for sure from the start, without any DSP required. It's just more transparent and gets out of the way, it doesn't add as strong a flavor to the sound. They are like an Apogee Element to me - very neutral with perfect measurements, but a touch of sweetness in mids and refinement up top making them non clinical.

    If you are looking for a midway - I can recommend the Neumann 310 - it'll give you the tight, deep and fast closed box bass which is so rare to find nowadays and is utterly addictive, and nice clean/calm mids and highs for honest but non fatiguing listen. Their room interaction is also minimal.
    Neumann don't shy away from using bit of electronic bass reinforcement to compensate for their smallish cabinets, which is why most of their models sound nice and punchy even at low volumes, which I find ATC's don't; low to mid volumes on their 10-20L actives are too mid forward for me, and I don't always want to rock out at full volume.
     
  10. EagleWings

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    I have been using a pair of Tannoy Gold 7 studio monitors for the past 6 months and I took delivery of the LS6 today. Man, I couldn’t have been more unprepared. Gold7 has a very direct sound, which helps keep the room reflection issues to a minimum. Also because of the rigid construction and front port, it is fairly easy to work with in terms of position and placement.

    LS6 on the other hand, which is a thin-wall and rear-port design, is turning out to be quite challenging. Right now, I have it in an untreated room on a large desk and 50% of what I am hearing seems to be the room and desk. Gold7 works fine in this very room and desk. LS6s definitely need a stand and I have read in enough places that these thin walled BBC type speakers prefer open stands.

    If you are a speaker noob like me, a pair of studio monitors may be the best way to go over something like an LS6 for near field listening.
     
  11. Pharmaboy

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    I think you're right. I've done lots of reading on some of the BBC-inspired, thin-wall-enclosure speakers, primarily Harbeths. I heard the 40.2 at a show & it blew my mind, though obviously too big & too expensive for my desktop use.

    I've also read many user comments about various Harbeth, Spendor, Graham, Falcon, etc speakers. People w/these speakers are known to obsess over whether to put blu-tak (or any intermediate buffer) between the bottom of the speaker and the top of the stand. Some say doing this "destroys the sound," and of course, others say it helps the sound.

    Just think about that: if the way the enclosure of a speaker contacts the stand is so important sonically, what are the odds my less than perfect desktop environment would get even moderately good sound from such a speaker? Not very good, unfortunately.
     
  12. saint.panda

    saint.panda Friend

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    Speaker noob here as well. Not sure how much of the "BBC magic" I'm destroying (probably not that much), but I've found EQ-ing with Sonarworks to be really effective with the Harbeth P3ESR, mainly to compensate for the rolled highs and, more importantly, bass issues due to my room. I also read the glowing reviews about stands for the BBC-style monitors that cost almost as much as the speakers themselves. Very sceptical. I compared ok-priced pro monitor stands (mainly for the looks) to just putting them on books on my desk: negligible difference compared to EQ-ing.
     
  13. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    LS6 is too large for a desk IMO unless it’s a very large desk (and can be distant from you) and the desk is decently well away from the walls. The LS6 goes very deep for its size and with the port, the bass will be massive bumped up close to a wall and on a desk. And the thin cabs will just vibrate on/near a flat surface. Best to get them up on something like an Iso Acoustic stands, but still, would need to be away from the walls.

    The only BBC style monitor I would ever go for nearfield on/near a desk would be a sealed cab, which pretty much means the LS3/5a or P3esr. Definitely EQ is needed for the bass when you’re close to walls or desk for anything that dips down into the 40s, which the LS6 do. And/or plug the port with a sock.
     
  14. Luigi Pichardo

    Luigi Pichardo New

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    rlow have you heard of the advantages of the LS6f's (floor stander) rear port over the regular LS6?
    https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/chartwell-ls6f-floorstanding-loudspeaker/
    It sounds like the port for the LS6f exits from a built in wooden stand which exits at the base of the speaker:

    "Where the two differ is the bookshelf speaker’s port passes to the rear of the thin-walled, bitumenised cabinet, where the floorstander’s port passes into what is effectively a built-in wooden stand to exit from the base of the speaker. The floorstanding speaker sits on a wide(ish) plinth"

    Even with socks in the rear port which many have done, it sounds like none of the users on this site has had the need to add a sub-woofer for an appreciably enhancement to the bass or have you had that opportunity to experiment with the bass?
     
  15. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Hey there. I’ve not heard the LS6f, so I can’t speak to it exactly, but I did contact Graham about it recently and Paul Graham responded to me about it:

    So I think with the LS6f, you’re basically getting an LS6 with a built in stand (although, likely the ideal stand from a tuning and resonance perspective) and a few more Hz of bottom end extension, and that’s it.

    As far as subwoofer, I use one with the LS6 (a Rel T7i). Depends what you want to get out of it, but it probably adds 10-15hz of extension, but also just more of that bass you can feel. The LS6 can go decently deep, but it’s not the type of bass you can really feel - it doesn’t have a lot of weight or grunt in those low end punches that a sub can bring. Of course it’s all in what your expectations are and the type of music you listen to. But if you want true full range sound and listen to a lot of different music/genres, I would add a sub at some point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    A pile of books makes a pretty good speaker stand. It's almost as dense as a block of wood.

    If you have the sort of desk where looks don't matter then they blend in nicely. I go to great lengths to make sure that there is nowhere where sound can actually get to the flat reflective surface of mine. You might call it a dump: I call it diffusion, lol.
     
  17. Pharmaboy

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    brilliant...

    Frank Zappa: "If I had enough money to get ahead, I'd go get a head."
     
  18. Inoculator

    Inoculator Friend

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    I will drop a quick reminder for folks that want to use the BBC thinwall stuff nearfield, that you have to be incredibly mindful of placement and reflections. The LS3/5A are KILLER nearfield, but the ideal scenario would be like a CEO style desk setup in the middle of the room so you can have the speakers out from the wall. Due to the thinwall design, they radiate sound in all directions, and reflections too close to the wall or off a desk can be horrible. I tamed this by getting a deeper but more narrow desk (speakers on stands next to desk), and treating the wall behind the speakers with sound dampening panels. I was blown away how different things sounded after both changes. I have them a bit under a foot from the wall now, and while still not ideal, the sound really came together.

    I have heard people say that if you face the LS3/5A backwards (aka drivers away from you) they will sound almost the same, and I while I have never tested it, I don't doubt it would be pretty darn close. So don't assume because they are a sealed design that you can get away with placing them against a wall.
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    My knowledge of audio history is not that great, and I am certainly not familiar with design/construction changes that may have happened over the decades, but weren't the original BBC monitors designed to work in the back of a small van?
     
  20. Inoculator

    Inoculator Friend

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    That is the history of the development of the LS3/5A. Was designed for as accurate reproduction of human voice in the field as possible, whether in a van, or plopped on the hood of a car, etc. The stuff that really goes wonky from not being positioned correctly is mainly bass/stage, so I could see how in professional/field use that is not a huge deal. I know my local shop always keeps a pair crammed in bookshelves as well (funny timing, they just posted a video of that setup: https://www.instagram.com/p/CL7x6tflJIN/). So I think for monitoring a broadcast, or just background listening, you can get away with suboptimal positioning. I think what is happening in that scenario is you are actually dampening the walls of the speaker, so you are losing out on some of what makes this speaker so magic, but limiting wonky behavior. Technically though the speaker is voiced with grills on, and on open frame stands (at least for these Graham Chartwell ones). Just my thoughts/observations after about a year of owning them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021

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