Neutral(ish) headphones [Continuous poll]

Let's remember to keep the OPs rules and objectives in mind here. Please post WHY you think a headphone is neutral preferably with data to back it up or useful references to say neutral speakers etc. That's what makes this thread unique otherwise it's just a mine's better than yours kinda thread.

 

That was my point.

 

Sorry. But OP has been here since Wednesday. It’s Saturday. What rando would be allowed to do this as a first post? I’ve seen many others banned for much less. How does he have the balls to put up a poll? And I’m the one to point it out? Me? WTF?

 

We don't need to be elitist. A good idea is a good idea, even if it's from a "rando". He's not asking the stupid questions, he put quite a lot of thought into this and executed it well. It doesn't seem like we have a thread for this so what's the harm?

 

This time absolutely none. Not sure it’s a good idea. Might be. But didn’t Marv mention something about being elitist? Don’t we have a very clear statement about new members? Seems to me we are making an exception here. That’s all. Peace.

 

Thanks very much for your impressions, LFF Paradox is now added to the list of impressions as well as poll!

Please explain in detail why you feel HE1000 deserves to be in the voting poll - how does it sound to you exactly, what is good and what is not so good about the headphone? As of now, HE1000 is on the list of headphones that could be added to the poll.

I have added your notes on HD600 and HD650 to the impression list, thanks!

Modded headphones unfortunately do not qualify unless they are/were being officially sold as a product and anybody could buy them.

I have added UERM and RE-272 to the list of potential future additions... Andromeda is already there. Could you please add few sentences describing in more detail how you feel about those IEMs? Would like to add them to the poll if you feel they could be considered. Thanks!

I have read the basic SBAF rules to follow, especially valid for newcomers it seems. I have also posted in the Introduce Yourself thread. Since then, I am focusing on providing some value instead of posting random questions, requesting loaners, requesting advices etc.

Some points regarding this thread:

• Even though this thread is created by me, it is not meant to be just my effort. I just started this, thats all.
• Even though I provided impressions for multiple headphones I consider worthy candidates, I wanted to provide equal space to anybody else here right from the start. This thread cannot grow without the help of others.
• Even though we can have different opinions on headphones, it is exactly the point of this thread to try to summarize them in a meaningful way and let all SBAF members vote for their top pics. I think that both the impressions and voting results can be VERY interesting and helpful.

Maybe I am doing something wrong but nobody from moderation team or elsewhere came to me clearly stating what exactly and how to adjust my behavior for the future to come. Again, I would like to focus on the thread rather than its author if possible. Maybe this thread could in a way be used to get more familiar with myself? Or maybe somebody else that is more trusted here could take over this topic? I wouldnt create the thread if it was already covered on SBAF... I am actually surprised it wasnt.

Thanks again for your impressions as well as for being honest but also fair!

 

@Magnetostatic_Tubephile . Thanks for your reply. Nicely said. If I came off brusk my apologies. Not my usual style. Also, thanks for adding the Paradox. It really deserves a spot. Nice work on the thread. Please continue.

 

I really should not have to explain why HD800S belong on anyone's short list of phones to consider. There are no perfectly completely neutral phones.

Impressions: The HD800S are the most revealing headphones I have had the pleasure to listen to. Be advised they will expose any problems with your components. It is very easy to hear deep into well recorded files. Midrange is most natural I have heard and treble is extended with plenty of air around instruments. Bass is accurate and you hear what is on the recording. Soundstage and imaging is excellent possibly the best of any phone you can buy right now. On well recorded files I often hear the music extend outside my head beyond my ears.

 

Or.. you could not. The HD800S has added second order distortion in the bass to thicken it up, and costs most more than the HD800 to boot. It's quite a poor choice.

Its only advantage is really a well-tuned Helmholtz resonator to take that ~6KHz spike down, but that's easily replicated on a basic HD800 with the SDR mod, leaving you with a better set of transducers overall.

Moreover, it's pretty f'ing far from neutral if you listen to classical. Suckout makes strings sound weird.

 

Pardon my intrusion, but I would have to beg to differ.

I've never owned an HD800 (nearly got an extended loan from a friend but that went down the pooper), but have demoed it extensively many times over the last few years, and it remains on my shortlist of "end-game" cans to purchase once I can actually afford good gear.

Granted, the imaging, soundstage, and resolving capacity of the Senns is almost hilariously better than most other headphones currently on the market, excepting perhaps the Utopia which did seem to present a bit more nuance when I got to briefly audition it (won't say anything definitive about the Utopia, my experience with the same is far too much a pittance to bother), but which was quite a bit less expansive-sounding and more than a bit pricier. However, despite its exceptional performance I feel that its a wee bit too unbalanced-sounding in its stock configuration to qualify for this list. Yes it can be quite improved after mods (@Bill-P seems to have some neat tricks up his sleeve), but the thread only considers headphones in their stock form, as per the first post.

As far as that goes, I hope you don't mind my saying that you may be missing the point of this thread. I don't believe the OP is seeking a particularly technically-proficient headphone, merely one that presents music as transparently as possible.

I know some people here are vehemently against calling audio gear "transparent", but I feel it serves a purpose to define a transducer as being capable of reproducing sound with as little innate colouration thereof as possible, the understanding being that nothing short of attending a live acoustic performance can sound truly "transparent".

Anyway, for all its strengths and however much I like it (after at least an Anax mod), the HD800 falls flat on its face when it comes to presenting well-balanced sound— mind you, this is coming from a recovered Grado/Beyer fanboy!

 

I would not generalise too much if I were you. I lived with HD800 and then the HD800S for quite some time. The HD800S is as far from neutral as it gets. Upper mids are scooped rendering symphonic music to be lifeless especially within the string and upper winds sections. HD6X0, Andromeda and Utopia are so much better at rendering the fundamentals.

The treble is bright despite the Helmholz resonator. I was relieved of getting rid of the spike on my HD800 but the sibilance was still present.

And the bass is the worst offender after the mids. Oh my, it just sounds like Dolly the sheep woolly farting on my ear drums. Why on earth would Sennheiser mess with the bass of the HD800 and create this mess? I mean don't they listen to their own products?!

Anyway, there you go.

 

I own the HD800 and have heard the HD800S several times. They both have their strengths. I wouldn’t say neutral is one of them. A quick look at the FR and CSD plots will confirm this. Resolving isn’t the same as neutral. To borrow a phrase from LFF. They don’t sound like nothing. They sure wouldn’t be used to mix or master recordings.

 

Care to add HD650 KISS? My pair is modded on an earlier iteration, but I'm sure many here can add impressions of the KISS mod.

 

Personally got rid of my HD800S in favor of my HD6XX, the upper midrange dip emphasized the quick rise going into the treble region which, even though the midbass was around the same level, still came off as a bit sharp as there isn't a smooth transition from the midbass to the treble like there is with the HD6x0. Of the terms to describe the HD800S for me to use, neutral wouldn't be on the shortlist and from my audition of the HD800 (stock), the latter would be even further away.

 

Forgive the noise,

While I can certainly understand and respect your request, and perhaps even sympathize a bit in the intention, I would ask you to consider the possibility that the validity of this thread, and it's intentions, may be compromised by not including modded options.

While they may not be available to to purchase new, modded cans are frequently available second-hand, on a variety of market-places.

Just my $.02. Can't get you shit these days, but may add up to something.

Back to your regular scheduled programming.

 

^ Not to mention LFF's stuff on the list is actually all modded. Huh, that flew under quite a few peoples' radars.

Or would Enigmatic Audio qualify as a vendor of headphones that just happen to be made using other companies' cans and then effectively remade? Then one would have to allow for the inclusion of more popular mods in this thread, which may confuse matters somewhat as not all mods are as prolific as MrSpeakers's original cans, Audio-Zenith's modded Oppo, etc.

Maybe have a provision stating that mods are allowed, so long as they're relatively popular, accessible (a la the SDR for the HD800— which still doesn't make it neutral), and effect a measurably substantial change in the headphones? Then again, what qualifies as popular/accessible/easy-to-do?

Bother.

 

I’m O.K. with mods as long as it is through a legitimate business . LFF, ZMF, Mr. Speakers etc. Mods that folks post here that they do themselves should be excluded. Might be candidates, but was not the OP’s intent. I think.

Just a thought that goes through my head sometimes. Why are we still having to mod headphones? Big corporations can’t pull it off, but a lot of you have? Marv’s talking about needing to mod a $4000 headphone. Why can’t they get it right? Focal might be on to something. Senn we love you, but we still have to mod your two best headphones.

 

For me, tone is the most important attribute of a transducer. With headphones, to get close to ‘neutral’ it seems you currently have to sacrifice a few technical qualities.

Limited means = HD600. Not perfect but it gets you most of the way there. Some 2-4khz weirdness and cymbals can sometimes sound a bit rough, but otherwise pretty damn good. It embarrasses most other headphones out there WRT tone.

Less limited means = PMx2. Not the last word in resolution, however it’s perfectly balanced. @Audio Zenith knows WTF he is doing. It will be interesting to see what he mods next now that PM2 seems to have been discontinued.

 

Completely agree with you!

Even better, he could make his own headphone instead of modding another, that would be quite something

 

I would probably send @Audio Zenith my Utopia if he was game