Neutral(ish) headphones [Continuous poll]

@Klasse kind of beat me to it, but...

So, I'm a bit lost with how this thread is beneficial to SBAF, at least in it's current form.

Aside from some notable members (@Ringingears, @cskippy, @jowls) graciously offering to participate, I'm still left with a fundamental issue for this to be a true SBAF reference source.

My problem is simple: WTF is neutral, and more importantly, what is SBAF neutral?

I understand that this is a communal effort to get a variety of input and establish a list, but having it open for any member to provide subjective impressions is defeating. Unless a member has established themselves, their gear, depth of experience and knowledge of other established members experience/preferences, and can offer true objectivity with credibility, how the hell are we to accept the impressions from an unknown, or arbitrary reference on or off-site? Even impressions taken out of context are problematic.

Also, references to objective measurements doesn't answer the question.

If this discussion is going to continue, it needs to be dictated by the Chancellor, or at least his Arbiter of Succession:

Unless it is known (and it may not be possible) what SBAF neutral is, I'll continue to struggle with the validity of the list.

I can't accept the inclusion of of certain gear that "quite a lot of people in Europe...think the headphone actually is neutral". Who the heck are these people? I don't know them, or their gear, experience or credibility.

So, unless one of the council wants to take this on, I'll continue to watch this thread for it's mild entertainment value. Looking at you @Kattefjaes.

Aside: Kudos to @Magnetostatic_Tubephile for the effort and attempt at taking this on. I honestly feel that something like this could could be a valid resource.

 

Lists can be helpful but there is no guarantee that a phone that works for one will work for all. It seems we all prefer slightly different sound signatures and what I consider neutral may not seem neutral to you at all.

E.G. the house sound of Focal does not work for me; granted I have only owned the Elears but I would be hesitant to buy anything else from them. I don't give a damn how much Tyll raves about Clears. Sennheisers work for me. I built my system around HD800S and only have plans to buy new phones if Sennheiser comes out with a next generation HD800.

 

The HD580 is the inbetween of the HD600 and 650.

 

I remember being taught the essential logical fallacies as a child. It's been a while but I think I recognize this one: Argumentum ad Stradivarium (sometimes referred to as the "Violins in Every Household" fallacy).

Jokes aside, the procedure for pushing cans to the poll should probably be more rigorous (something akin to suggestion #2) so stuff that multiple trusted sources agree isn't neutral doesn't make it in to begin with.
I think a removal process should also account for cases like the Clear and Auteur, entries that need more time to gestate as they are brand new and widespread impressions aren't quite on the level yet (i.e. voter turnout for these likely won't be "representative" for some time).

Overall, in addition to the dispute raised about neutrality, I'm also a little confused by the nature of the poll as it is now (though the initiative does have potential and the aggregated impressions are a nice resource). Are these vote counts actionable in some way? How can/should they be meaningfully interpreted?

 

I think this is also useful establishing what SBAFers consider neutral with votes for weighting even with personal preferences. Just good data to have.

 

I'm not sure why this is so difficult. Neutral is the one that doesn't impart it's own flavor.

 

Well since there isn't a universally agreed upon neutral headphone, this will have to do. No headphone is perfectly neutral. HD650 seems to get a lot right with a smooth response from 100Hz to 10kHz but even then there are some wiggles and inconsistencies about what a neutral frequency response should be for headphones. Go look at the MiniDSP EARS thread if you want to be more confused.

 

Can't tell if neutral post or not.

 

Sort of like when The Rock asks if you can smell what he's cooking?

 

This post seems to conflate "neutrality" with "I like it." If it "...does not work for me...", well, then it can't be neutral, now can it? And since I "built my system around..." it, it must be neutral. In fact, I already know what will be neutral in the future, and that is the only hp I intend to buy, even though it doesn't exist yet, except in Axel Grell's head. And I don't care what anybody else says, including somebody who has probably heard more headphones in the last week than I have heard in my entire life.

If "neutral" is utterly subjective, and there is no concensus on what the term even means, then the thread might as well be called "What is the best headphone?" No offense to the op is intended, and I appreciate the effort, but as exemplified by the above, the absence of an agreed-upon definition for the variable in question pretty much kills any chance of gleaning any useful data from the poll. Good luck though.

 

Here's the thing: neutrality depends on how the person heard it. It sounds like a cop-out answer, but we wouldn' have threads like this if it wasn't an issue. A lot of people here see the HD600 as the referenxe to what neutral would be. I cannot see it that that way. It doesn't have enough subbass (or bass in general) to present bass notes how they should be, there is quite a bit of shout, and it can sound a but too bright at times. The HD650 goes out of its way to correct that, and, while it gets closer, it ends up making the bass too wooly. The KISS mod actually makes it as neutral as it can be, which is oddly similar to the HD580.

The HD800 can't be neutral either. It had an upper-mids reception and a treble emphasis. The bass, while good quality, hits like a slightly weighted pool noodle. It's tuned to bring out detail and sound vast...which it does. In spades.

So if the top dynamics can't do it, maybe orthos Can? Well, not really. As it turns out, having a super-linead bass kills any real power in it, even if it goes deep into the subbass. Without that emphasis, you have a wall that doesn' do much but annoy people on bassy tracks.

So what's left that could be neutral? Well, you have to have enough subbass emphasis to feel powerful, but not too much to overwhelm the listener. You need mid-bass to give it that immediate punch and some realistic decay. Then enough lower mids to give it tecture, linear mids (both mid-range and upper midrange) for the vocal and presence, then air for detail and resolve.

So far, only the Auteur and kiss-modded HD650 fit this mold. Well, this D2000 modded with TH900 drivers with open back cups from Eudis is also at that neutral classification, but nobody else can hear one to agree or disgree.

 

I would actually like to see what @Hrodulf has to say on this topic, as he seems to be actively pursuing neutrality (?) via dsp with True-fi, with many different candidates. His perspective should be interesting. You out there Rudy?

 

I don't believe it's quite that simple.

As people who are allergic to measurements bandy about so often, everyone hears things differently. This is true. The shape of our pinnae are hardly uniform, each set of ears somewhat different from the other, the amount of hearing loss across the spectrum an individual has being different from others'. I've a friend whose ears are in much better condition, and where I could endure the TH900 for a couple minutes at around 80 db

I've been doing a bit of extra reading lately since school's still out anyway and I find this topic interesting, but the bottom line is that there is basically no single transducer that is perfectly neutral, the ones some argue may be closest to it (as @PacoTaco mentioned above) still have some mild colouration of their own.

I'd say measurements go a long way towards helping audio enthusiasts in general come to a consensus on what neutral is.

P.S.
What. Open-backed AH-D2000s with TH900 drivers and presumably nice treble? WHAT IS THIS UNICORN AND HOW MANY PEOPLE MUST I SACRIFICE TO HAVE ONE??

(Exaggeration aside, that sounds right up my alley).

 

This is still going on?

Add the following headphones:
Beyerdynamic DT250-250
AKG K240 DF
AKG K240 Monitor
Pioneer Monitor 10
Beyerdynamic DT1350 (a good one!)
Sony CD900 ST
AKG K500
AKG K501

There are more you can add. There are so many flavours of neutral-ish you will be amazed. I left a few out on purpose. These discussions tend to lead to a few lists of "headphones to check out" and that is usually it.

 

This is where I see the value of this thread, so thank you for creating it! The discussion is interesting but my scepticism starts to creep in as to what exactly all the voters have heard to conclude that their vote is the most neutral headphone. Interesting nonetheless.

That said, there are flavours in the recording world with respect to studio monitors. Even in that environment, many differ on what "neutral" sounds like.

 

I can certainly understand that the lack of exact definition of 'neutral' is off-putting for considerable amount of people. That being said, it's exactly my point - nobody has a widely accepted definition of what headphone neutrality is and how it should translate to actual headphone listening (subjective experience) for any of us, as far as I know. This thread at least attempts to somehow go around this limitation by trying to focus on personal experience (personal takes on neutrality) of a large group of members on (IMHO) a highly specialized/knowledgeable headphone forum. Yes, it is not a scientific study and yet I think it makes some sense.

In other words, if there is a place for a thread like this, I believe it is here on SBAF - thats why I created it here and not elsewhere. And from what I've seen so far, I definitely do not agree with assumption that this thread could easily be renamed to 'Popular SBAF headphones'. But each to his own, of course. Maybe I just have too much faith in SBAF, who knows. I am just a Rando after all, right?

In the end, I do not think I should attempt to defend the existence of this thread any more. If people on SBAF see no actual value in it or even find it to generate unwanted noise, free free to close it and delete/archive it. Life goes on.

Anyway, I am not submitting any new headphones until the following is clarified:

1. Whether to continue with the thread, or not.
2. How to approach new nominations. (Again, see my three suggestions already posted. So far
   @g_mr_p replied with @Lye liking his suggestion to probably go with suggestion #2 combined with #1.)

Thank you all for your comments so far, appreciated!

 

Dude, you are not just a rando. You actually made me think. You are contributing something to our daily discussions and posts.

You seem to understand this place. Consider that a compliment.