Ode to Schiit: Vali Coaster

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by purr1n, Aug 8, 2020.

  1. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    This is a super special amp. Pavel was a friend of mine and a truly gifted amp maker. He gave and sold me multiple amps over the years at the cost of parts. He gave me a SOHA1 which is always a big hit at meets. People look at it perplexed when they listen to it. Take off their headphones and search for words and put their headphones back on again. Finally just saying something like “that sounds really good”. I borrowed a SOHA2 which is more expensive to build/buy, bigger, has more tubes, is actually a different design altogether, and should have killed my SOHA1. I couldn’t tell the difference after days with both side by side. But if I had to choose, there was something unexplainably better sounding about Pavel’s SOHA1. I still have it as my main headphone amp.

    Things are more complicated than people like Amir (it seems- he wasn’t doing this shit when I knew him back in the day) make them out to be.

    I also heard a DIY version of the liquid lightning (I forget what it was called, it’s what the liquid lightning was based off of) and it sounded incredible, this fast electrostatic kind of sound I haven’t ever heard in an amp before. Beautiful. I later bought someone else’s build of the same amp and it sounded not bad but really not good at all, worse than a portable amp that Pavel made me.

    who the f**k knows how to explain this kind of stuff. Certainly Amir couldn’t produce measurements that would. But it’s all very real regardless.

    By the way, it should be noted that the whole “f**k marketing only follow measurements” shtick is a marketing tactic itself. Like Bloomingdales “big brown bag”. Anti-marketing can also be marketed. You don’t think nwavdeuce established a very serious brand? He was probably a better marketer than Schitt.

    And speaking of having fun building amps, he won’t out of humility but it sure would be great if @dBel84 would post some pictures of his past amp builds. They looked like set pieces from a Star Wars movie. He sold a whole bunch in one thread one time on head-fi a long time ago (in a galaxy...) and to this day they’re some of the coolest looking amps I’ve seen. A lot of them built using recycled parts from other stuff. He had a lot of fun building those amps.

    yes Marv. Please. For all our sakes, have fun. I think good things will come of it (beyond you having fun)
     
  2. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    Cool bit of history. Thanks for sharing guys :)
     
  3. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Here’s some history that a lot of good people wouldn’t want told. Ancient history. A story I’ve wanted to tell Marv for years. Back before all the measurement hysteria (yes, there was a time when measurements weren’t a big part of this hobby, or a part at all except I guess to some gear designers. Back in the early-ish days of head-case before they all cut ties with head-fi. The head-case guys were at that time basically all the old time experienced head-fiers. And they all owned Singlepower amps. Literally, Bay Area meets were like Singlepower trade shows. Everyone who could afford it had a Singlepower amp. A lot of you probably don’t know the name Singlepower. Hush hush. A lot of people to be very embarrassed by the history of Singlepower. The designer was this mythical legend at the time named Mikhail. He was always rumored to be showing up to the meet in person (OMG in person!!!) but never did or maybe once he did for like 15 minutes. An enigma. He supposedly owned a huge warehouse full of unobtanium tubes. Fast forward a couple years.

    I’m not sure exactly what happened, but I can summize that someone’s Singlepower amp stopped working and this person sent it to Spritzer to fix. And Spritzer opened it up and was “horrified” by lack luster parts and build quality. He then shoved his fat head up Kevin Gilmore’s ass far enough to whisper what he found in Kevin Gilmore’s ear. I don’t know the real truth of what they (I’m guessing it was one of them given what followed) found inside. Could have been not such a big deal. Like many examples we’ve seen of people freaking out about objectivist ideals not being met that maybe don’t matter much or actually sound good in real life. Like tubes. The 2 of them then decided it was their mission to reveal the “truth” about Singlepower and “save” everyone from wasting their money on what they considered (or publicly claimed) to be a scam artist. It must have been a big deal. I missed the “unveiling” of this “discovery” probably because I didn’t read the kind of threads it was likely in. The two of them must have become sort of head-fi famous for their “discovery” because it got to their heads and it turned into a constant for the two of them which got really nasty and distorted over time as they tried to continue this mission with other amp builders and started literally making stuff up to be able to continue their shock and awe type “truth telling” shaming amp builders. Problem is that Kevin Gilmore designed amps himself. So fast forward a couple years again.

    You now walk into a Bay Area meet and everyone owned Kevin Gilmore amps. All the people who used to own Singlepower amps had ditched them for Kevin Gilmore amps.

    The point here is that they went from one extreme to another but were still buying amps the same way. The Spritzer/Kevin Gilmore koolaid was actually much stronger than the Singlepower koolaid. Ie they were all still drinking koolaid, just a different brand sold in a different way. And actually Koolaid that is sold based on supposed science is much more dangerous to the communal sense of reality than hokus pokus marketing.

    I’m sure Kevin Gilmore’s amps measured better than Singlepwer amps but I will honestly say I preferred the sound of Singlepower amps. The SDS XLR (Singlepower’s TOTL amp which was the biggest headphone amp in history I think) plus HD650 remains the best electrodynamic rig I’ve ever heard (from memory). Surely with some uber CD transport or maybe some kind of fancy high res CD transport I forget what that tech was. I listened to almost the whole Dark Side of the Moon (Gold disc? Is that what it was?) and it was awesome. No veil. So detailed and so dynamic sounding. So real. And no Orpheus harshness. (I do still love the Oroheus despite its bright signature, probably the only bright headphone I like).

    This is funny because what Spritzer and Kevin Gilmore did isnt on the surface that different from what Marv did with CSD graphs of headphones. We also kind of went on a mission to shame manufacturers. But if you look closer it was done in a much different way with much different motives. Marv mentioned wishing he could remove his name tag at meets. Spritzer and KG have never had such a desire. Their shaming was 100% based on numbers and then later a lot was fabricated BS so they could continue shaming. Marv’s CSD plots are IMO the most significant thing to happen to the headphone industry at least in recent history. I remember looking at his initial thread (this was before Changstar) and slowly getting more and more excited as measurement after measurement (here’s the part to take home) matched exactly how I had always heard that headphone. It was objective proof of a subjective truth that I had been ranting about for years. My first thread on head-fi was about the RS-1 sounding bright and harsh to me. You don’t believe me, look it up. Purrin’s plots continued to back up what I had heard exactly. In fact my list of best headphones wound up being the exact same list as Changstar’s wall of fame (which was based on subjective impressions and CSD measurements.) So Spritzer/KG were on a mission to change the amplifier industry by shaming amps that didn’t meet a set of objective measurement standards that did not match what I and many experienced people with good ears heard. KG amps sound like shit to me. Flat, cold, lifeless, boring as hell. I could never have the experience I had with Singlepower’s SDS XLR and the HD650 with a KG designed amp. Changstar in its heyday was on a mission to use objective measurements to try to change the headphone industry by shaming headphones that sounded really bad regardless of measurements. Headphones like the super expensive Ultrasones. Always grounded and motivated by subjective experience. Using objective measurements to give those experiences validity and to understand them better. Before Marv’s CSD thread on head-fi I didn’t know about resonance. I was just screaming “too much f'ing treble!!!!“ So his measurements helped me understand my experience in a profound way and completely change the way I thought about what I was hearing, and would later inform my ortho modding journey which sadly never got finalized into a product I could share because I got sick before I finished and it took me a long time because my standards were very high. I’m a picky bastard.

    anyways. I think what Marv wants more of is that experience, that journey. If you want to know what to follow when both the subjectivists and objectivists are marketing and selling you something, the answer is to follow that feeling I described when listening to the SDS XLR plus HD650 (the owner of that amp traded it for a crap sounding KG amp btw). Follow your experience. Be the kid with the kick ass cheap, totally unique rig that sounds awesome.

    I’ve always kind of cringed at the way everyone calls this a hobby. Because to me, buying stuff isn’t a hobby. If you want to be a hobbyist you can’t just buy what they tell you, you’ve got to get involved. And maybe then it’s a hobby. You have to be making something and experiencing something.

    while I’m at it, another real gem in the amplifier world and someone who makes this a hobby more than anyone else is Bay Area’s own Frank. He makes some of the most beautiful and best sounding headphone amps ever made just for the fun of making them and then takes them apart and makes a new amp. To the horrified screams of knowing enthusiasts everywhere. People have begged him to sell or commission amps but he’s not interested. One of his amps was heard by multiple experienced ears I trust as being the best they had ever heard both the K1000 and the HP1000 (two very different loads and needs). (I still thought the K1000 sounded like shrill bright garbage with great soundstage but that’s beside the point, there were K1000 fans there who were drooling.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  4. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    The early Singlepower stuff was brilliant. However the whole story is something I tell to people who want to go from DIY to commercial and to people who ask me why I don't set up my own company. The problem was that Mikhail bit off more than he could chew and with a huge backlog of orders he had to cut corners to deliver them. KG and Spritzer caught wind of that and started blowing the whistle. Being a DIYer yourself, I'm sure you know how horrid the soldering/wiring/whathaveyou can be inside an amp before it actually starts impacting the sound. Mikhail traded less lifetime, resilience to vibrations, performance at fault conditions for less build time, so he could get the amps to people. And most of them still worked fine and sounded excellent. Until they didn't. I still think that KG and Spritzer were right for what they did to SP which ended up disappearing together with many people's money.

    I appreciate KG's and Spritzer's contributions to DIY headphone audio and electrostatic headphone audio. After all, my first DIY amp was Dynalo and now I'm rocking a CFA3. However, lately they often conduct themselves like bullies and seem more interested in feeding their egos and preaching to the choir. I've called them out on that, but I'm a nobody in the big picture.
     
  5. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    I always wanted to go to one of the good meets on the West Coast. Since I am in North FL, it's OAFAS land. I think I only met one/two people in real life who had any interest in headphones. However, they do speakers since they own their homes and two their other half allows them to run speakers (even if they aren't a biggest fan of speakers in general). FL is so wide and not fully gathered together like in Cali, it is hard to get people together. Some of the HF meets are mostly in Central and South FL. Was considering going to one of them a few years back, then I had to deal with this idiot here.

    Then I kind of stop following FOTM on Head-Fi a few years after signing up there. At the time I didn't know anything about CS, but I was turned off from Head-Case. I keep slipping back/froth of headphones in general until I found SBAF. I do want to fly out to SoCal to troll @tommytakis and talk stuff with everyone. Would be nice to do this just once.

    End of the day I wanna hear some music. @purr1n post about Future Sounds of London made me listen to their 90s stuff today on my wireless Sony IEMs. Is it true Hi-Fi? Hell no, but it is relaxing and I still get musical enjoyment. I'm glad that I can still listen to music on lower end stuff that people sneer, cause in the end of the day I wanna hear new stuff.
     
  6. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    Oh man. Headphone audio was so exotic back in the day (2008 for me). So few commercial players, DIY monstrosities. I remember my first meet down in Miami? Ft. Lauderdale? Somewhere monied in south Florida. Only about a dozen people, but man they were bringing it. 3! K1000s, a bunch of Grados, OG HE-5 (which was brand new then). Functioning Singlepower amps. Kevin Gilmore and AMB hadn't yet produced their best work. Staxen of all kinds. A ton of neat stuff, but it was all so foreign, so niche, so rough still. Like people were throwing around money at stuff that was all a crapshoot and not finished yet. But everyone was so nice, so generous, so eager to share their discoveries. Good times. I felt like an outsider in a very secret, select club, but it felt so wonderful.

    Now, the market is so flooded with good and bad, affordable and not, that I can't bring myself to care. DIY is pretty much dead, as commercial offerings are finally available at all price points, at quality that DIY offerings can't beat without serious cash, or a closet sized chassis.

    I wish I had been able to go to bigger meets and meet some of the original players back when Headfi was actually a great place to be. I still enjoy meets for the people, but they just don't feel the same anymore. Oh well. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I do too. Same as I appreciate Garuspik's contribution personal audio as well. However, there is the asshole factor. And doesn't "lately" mean the past seven years? Also consider that perhaps their "contributions" have been offset by that no else wants to get into the electrostatic amp game? The political bullying has probably discouraged others from making amps for 'stats.

    I'd be a lot more behind Justin's amps if they didn't have Gilmore on them. "Dr." Gilmore, "P.h.D" is smart. He probably gets a cut for his designs, while hiding behind Justin's company while he craps on competitors' designs. I don't have anything against Justin, but I do not know if he is aware of the optics.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  8. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    I just remember back then that people were buying Vintages Receivers since some have good headphone amps built in. There was that thread in HF that takes me back. Even the starving students as well. We went from those things (with Audio-GD thrown in the mix) to pre-built amps with little DIY. Also, HF gotten so big I'm like who are these guys nowadays. Always prefer low-key than mainstream on forums.
     
  9. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's sad. There was a lot of collaboration, but it wasn't so much that Cavalli fell out of the "in" crowd. It was more that Head-Case became the cult of KG. They all came from Head-Wize, including Jude who started Head-Fi.

    As far as Alex Cavalli, he was always part of the "in" crowd. There were lots of collaborations with others. SOHA (with Mark Lovell and Bill Pasculle), CK2III (with Ti Kan) based on the Kumisa amp and Benny Jørgensen. The CK2III is one of my favorite amps.

    All ancient history anyway. Things change. KG is a footnote. Cavalli was semi-retired hoping to pass on his legacy, but he couldn't find a reliable business partner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  11. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Okay, seven years is more like it. And yeah, pretty sure there was a post by Jason on why Schiit isn't getting into the 'stat game which was pretty telling. On the other hand I'm not sure how much business actually is there. I could never get to like that ethereal 'stat bass.

    You think? There used to be some Chinese kits floating on ebay with decent PCB's and parts which he vaguely endorsed on HC. I'm getting more of an ego trip vibe from his and Spritzers behaviour.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    OK, time to have measurements fun!

    Schiit Vali (coaster version)
    Steady state 1kHz sine -3dBu into 32-ohms
    Volume knob maxxed, input from AverLAB
    upload_2020-8-10_9-10-36.png

    The second harmonic alone is about 0.5%. I don't think it's quite clipping yet because the successive odd orders are lower than the evens. The distortion pattern is considered "good": https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...o-schiit-vali-coaster.9729/page-2#post-313092

    Next I wanted to try a more realistic use case for efficiency 32-ohm headphones like Grados. -3dBu (about 0.55Vrms) is way too hot for these. I'm pretty these that level would destroy the Grados. -10dBu isn't that much lower, but the idea is that we still want to push these headphones hard. (Actually I think -10dBu is may kill the Grados if run for more a few seconds).

    Schiit Vali (coaster version)
    Steady state 1kHz sine -10dBu into 32-ohms
    Volume knob maxxed, input from AverLAB
    upload_2020-8-10_9-24-47.png

    D2 is about -65dBu. The difference between the signal and second harmonic distortion is -55db is 0.18% THD.

    These results are pretty horribad. But you know what, the amp sounds pretty good. I bet most people wouldn't even be able to identify the distortion.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
  13. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    I started typing this up yesterday as I have a coaster on my desk and it serves me well everyday as a kickass coaster :).

    The thread struck a chord as it is with many who have been in this game for a while. My participation started with Chu Moy's (RIP) Headwize and more specifically the DIY forum which was an absolute gem of knowledge. There were very few commercial products available aside from the headphones themselves and even then, there were limited options available from the big names back then. The key to being part of the hobby back then was the people. The sense of community and willingness to teach and nurture people's skills and understanding. Marv's description of the meets took me right back to my own experience organizing meets in Portland, OR. ( a few years into me building tin amps and developing the SOHA 1 with Alex, Bill (Batman) and Mark (MainsHum) - so much free experimentation with ideas). The most fantastic thing was when people dumped all sorts of crazy gear out of backpacks.

    I, like many, have been through this rollercoaster of enchantment with the hobby. I started off as a noob in the stereo DIY world when I didn't have an expendable income, I wanted good quality but knew I couldn't afford it. I quickly got disillusioned by the bullies who near demanded that you sell a kidney to be part of the club or get out. Luckily I discovered vintage gear and traded a dining room set for a killer ( albeit mistreated ) tube amp from the 50's - LEAK Stereo 20. I put my ability to read a circuit and solder to work and refurbished it. That amp and a cobbled together humble system gave me my first insight into a sound that to my ears was "magic" - goosebump rendering. When I started to move about the globe, headphones were by far a better solution and later kids came along which sealed my fate of focusing on headphones and all the wondrous experiences that followed as I experimented ( within a community ) with different amp topologies and modifying headphones.

    @rhythmdevils post brings back some of the dark times in this hobby, sadly bullies exist everywhere and their targets and motives are not always as transparent as professed. Craig, Alex, Jason and I am sure there have been more but I have not read a HC thread in many years. It does sadden me that there is not mutual respect for talent. I am not referring to SinglePower and Mikhail - aside from some shortcuts, he made some poor decisions that were unsafe ( reversing low voltage transformers to generate high voltage, under spec'd caps etc ) - I have repaired a handful of the amps and I do like their sound but as @Hrodulf noted, it is fair warning to anyone transitioning from DIY to commerce. Sadly reminds me of Smeggy (Gary) and his Thunderpants = for those who don't know, Smeggy made true works of art and spent a lot of time fine tuning each headphone for a small fee. Sadly he got ill and his medical condition prevented him from meeting his targets and things spiraled out of control. BUT he was the forerunner to pave the path for folk like Dan and Zach who have given us many great products and have created a niche market for their own success to compete against the greater machine.

    I didn't want this to be a ramble down memory lane but really to pay homage to all the work that has been done to keep this hobby active, engaging and most of all fun. I am forever grateful to Marv for creating SBAF and all the folk who continue to contribute and maintain the community. ( yes, including drunk zoom meetings )

    ..dB
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    However, things do calm down rapidly as we go down to more normal listening levels!

    Schiit Vali (coaster version)
    Steady state 1kHz sine -20dBu into 32-ohms
    Volume knob maxxed, input from AverLAB
    upload_2020-8-10_9-53-47.png

    However, things do calm down rapidly as we go down to more normal listening levels.

    Schiit Vali (coaster version)
    Steady state 1kHz sine -30dBu into 32-ohms
    Volume knob maxxed, input from AverLAB
    upload_2020-8-10_9-54-55.png

    According the first two measurements, this amp should sound like complete shit, but it doesn't. These latter two measurements probably explain why. Even if I were using a less efficient headphone -3dBu is still a very high level.

    This also demonstrates why a single SINAD number at an arbitrarily chosen voltage level is complete nonsense. What headphone, how efficient is the headphone, what kind of load does the headphone present? Headphones vary massively, even more than speakers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
  15. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    And at the risk of getting too sentimental, it is people like you, @dBel84 and @purr1n that continue to give back and share the knowledge that keeps me interested. I might be past DIY and buying expensive stuff for a while, but you guys and SBAF in general as a community have kept me coming back for the company. I don't really have much to contribute outside of the odd cable or a small donation, but a raised glass of whiskey to those who are still contributing to the hobby.
     
  16. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Oh god, I 'member in 2013 when I had a gamma 2, a benchmark DAC2, and some shitty TEAC DAC. I brought the TEAC with my KGSSHV + SR-007 MK1 to some meet and @purr1n had never heard the STAX sound so bad in his life (I could tell by his face). I could not for the life of me understand why this sounded so much worse than my gamma 2/CDP > dynahi > HD800/HD600 setup.

    I did not understand digital sources at the time. Good god.

    IMG_20130217_192903_658.jpg
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    That Teac. The horror! The horror! Top three worst DACs I've ever heard.
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I may have to take you up on your offer. I can't find it. I swear I saw it the other day.
     
  19. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Some people really make a difference between "keep coming back" and "f this".

    One thing i really have to ask, since you guys mentioned it, did Gilmore actually make some good Amps for dynamic headphones? Of his design i heard a Daniyo something (?), which was a DIY+T1 and a Lite Mk2, with 600/800, and i thought both were sterile, i can't really find a better adjective. Did he actually make something that sounded good (i never heard anything else from him)?
     
  20. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    I loved my Vali1 - only thing I ever regret selling off...
     

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