PAP Trio 15 and DIY - Discussion

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Hooncake, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. ogodei

    ogodei Friend

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    Laptop with unknown software, Vermeer Audio TWO DAC \ Preamp, PassLabs Xs 150 Amps , no label on the cables.

    Oddly, they claimed they didn't have Slayer available to play. One suspects.
     
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  2. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    There are a number of Vossatex drivers out there that PAP uses. I think they used a field coil Voxectomy at a recent AXPONA. Which one are you guys talking about?
     
  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    Voxativ price for their drivers is crazy. wtf level of pricing

    their fieldcoil laxativ are between 10000 to 15000$! the supravox 215 exc fieldcoil would seem to be a great match for the PAP.
    Their voxativ 1.6 is also head scratching high price wise. I wonder how much better they are then the tangband?
     
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  4. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday! - Friend

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    I don't think the field coil represents an upgrade over the regular wood cone drivers. The hybrid field coil driver actually sounds like shit. But make no mistake, even the cheaper Vox drivers demolish the tangband in transparency.

    You're going to have to open the wallet if you want to make the jump in sound quality, but I don't advise it. Most people aren't discerning enough to notice the difference, and the money isn't negligible.
     
  5. ogodei

    ogodei Friend

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    The drivers I was listening to are the wood cone AC-PiFe. The price jump up to the field coils would be too extravagant for me.
     
  6. skem

    skem Friend

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    Question for the senior BWC folks: is there any reason to prefer 15” over multiple 10” or 12”, provided the surface area and other properties are the same?

    My thinking: For wavelengths large compared to the driver spacing there shouldn’t be significant comb filtering from multiple drivers. The directivity of higher frequency sounds, however, will be less beamy with multiple smaller woofers, but at the cost of losing the point source approximation. My specific scenario involves all 1st order crossovers, so not very point-sourcey anyway, but everything will be time aligned to help out. Subwoofer to mid-woofer crossover is at 80Hz. That gives -12dB at 320Hz=1m, where drivers and driver spacing do become comparable to the wavelength. But at -12dB amplitude , the ripple from comb filtering of the sub woofers seems like it would be not-too-bad.

    Anything else I’m forgetting? Opinions?

    Edit: this question is motivated by a desire to avail myself of some of the fancy, low-distortion woofers that exist; not a desire to save space or money.

    Edit2: /wonders if a vertical line of woofers becomes a constant directivity array to some extent.

    Edit3: I’ve never liked commercial speakers that have a bunch of 6” woofers stacked up....one big one always sounded better. Makes me feel like I’m missing some concept in my thinking.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I think multiple 10" or 12" is fine. But for similar sensitivity and frequency range, cabinet volume is somewhat the same too. Furthermore, 15" woofers maybe in general more expensive, but then things become comparable as one gets multiple smaller drivers (of similar quality). Also, what may work 3-way with a 15" might need to be 3.5-way with multiple 10" or 12".

    Note that what can and cannot be done depends on the specifics of the drivers.
     
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  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    1. Lower Fs <-- huge - this solves all sorts of "problems"
    2. Even better efficiency
    3. Faster transients (all things being equal)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    @jmpsmash:
    1. Wide baffles are going to image like shit. Tradeoffs. Try lining felt onto the baffles where the drivers are playing over 500-1kHz. You can also try cutting in random jaggy or pill patterns onto the baffle. The issue is that big baffles are going to be a source of diffraction.
    2. Open baffles may image like shit from unwanted reflections from back. Treat walls behind the speakers.
    3. As far as point source, you don't really have one. It's more like a big cone source, and a highly directional one at that. Tradeoffs. The small JBL buttcheck tweeters with controlled dispersion image way better than the Oris horns.
    4. If you narrow the baffle, be aware that this will result in loss of low end extension.
    Other than the things I mentioned you can do in #1 and #2 above, the only thing you can do is go for a different design. Tradeoffs. We can't have everything in one design.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Different application. Tangbang isn't nearly as efficient. Probably 91db (TB specs lie) as opposed to a true 98db. Magnet is smaller and fabric surround absorbs up more low level signals (hint: look at Qms). SET amp owners only have one path here.

    TB has come a long way, but still...
     
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  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    If you want fancy low-distortion woofers, go JBL with the super low Qts, and put them in a BIG cabinet.

    No, and this is unnecessary. Bass is already omni-directional.

    Yes. They sound like ass. Even funnier when these small exotic ceramic cones are cranked up at audio shows, and you see them six inchers move in and out - making no bass or distorted bass.
     
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  12. Hooncake

    Hooncake Mid-Fi Purgatory Redemption

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    try toe-ing it more, it helped me alot
     
  13. skem

    skem Friend

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  14. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    This morning I paid Thomas from PAP a visit in Iowa City to pick up my woofers and Heil brackets. Thomas was very hospitable and a great guy to chat with. He had a pair of Trio 15 Heils set up and ready to go. His equipment was mostly Parasound stuff and we just streamed a few tunes from Tidal. I saw a Sonore box behind one of the speakers which I'll assume was the streamer.

    Anyway, the demo was short but consisted of SRV, Rolling Stones, Muse, Radiohead and some opera I wasn't familiar with but sounded great. So having a long history with Magneplanars I wanted to see if the PAPs would throw an image like a pair of well set up large (2.x-3.x series) pair of Maggies. In short they don't quite get there but come pretty close. This pair was about 2 feet out from the wall, 6-7 feet apart and I was probably 9 or 10 feet away from the center point between the speakers. Like this they had a solid center image along the back wall as if there was a well integrated center channel built into the wall. The imaging didn't do anything like continue 3-4 feet left of left or right of right speaker, which Maggies can do in the right room. But I wasn't expecting that to happen either.

    Tonally these were smooth. Nothing was harsh or edgy, nor were there any problems with mid-bass bloat. They played deep, but not like subwoofer bass. This is what Maggies don't do. Everything here sounded really well integrated. I may have mentioned this before but the Heil tweeter is unlistenable for the first hour or two. Then they still sound bright. When I set them up with my Klipsch as mid-tweeter substitutes, I initially regretted not buying more resistors as they seemed 1 or 2 db too hot after attenuating them 5-6 db to begin with. But after a couple of weeks of television sound run in, they really smoothed out.

    A side note, I was not expecting the PAP 15s to be so light. I know neodymium is light, but I wasnt expecting a case of 4 woofers to weigh less than the single10" in my Jeep. This explains why my initial concerns that the speakers would be prone to tippage was unfounded.

    Also, Thomas gave me a killer deal on some used frames and baffles that I wasn't expecting. So now I just need to get off my ass and find the time to build some crossovers. IMG_20190419_122235919.jpg
     
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  15. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    I decide to build the PAP fully diy frames but using the same dimension/xo. Something about Widebanders that just sounds right. Ive compared with my dad the jbl 4698 with various widebanders: WE 755a, Philips 10 inch. Something just magic with good widebanders. I dont want anything smaller then 8 inch because in my opinion, for realistic midrange, you need a realistic size mid. anything smaller then 6.5 inch is too small imo.

    now, I cannot afford the Voxativ 1.6, been looking at my options in the 8 inch realm. First, what do you guys think about whizzers vs no whizzers in 8 inch land?

    My shortlist for papercone 8 inch widebanders so far are:
    supravox 215 bicone
    tangband w8-1808

    anything else I should consider? the fostex fe206 are not to my taste at all.
     
  16. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    Moth cicada drivers are excellent in this config.
     
  17. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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  18. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Consider FE208EZ. Better behaved and more resolving than FE206. The 6" FE168EZ may work well too. Help them out on the bottom with 15" woofers. May also want to add a supertweeter like Beyma buttcheeks.

    Consider used. I snagged my Lowther DX3 for cheap this way. All widebanders will have FR issues regardless.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  20. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    FE-206E (originals have a smoother response)

    FE-108 SOL if you can track them down
     
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