Phono pre-amp discussion

The Pete Millet LR Phono beat out the TC750 in clarity, noise, and punch. The TC-750 was the first phono pre where I could actually hear a significant upgrade, and contiunue to think its one of the best values out there. I may have went overboard with the Jantzen superior caps for the TC-750, but the bass is perfect for my tastes. The TC750 has a wetter for liquid sound, where the LR Phono is more neutral and forward / in your face.

 

Here are some soundclips of the two phono stages I own the Channel D Seta L and Trulife Argo. The Seta L is sold direct from Channel D for $5K USD. The Trulife is $20-25K USD via the regular dealer model.

I'm using the last half of "Mood Indigo" from the AP re-issue of Masterpieces By Ellington. I picked a mono cut because it takes a lot of variables out and me focus easier. Obviously no copyright infringement intended for educational purposes only; this is one of the greatest Jazz records ever made... everybody with a turntable should own a copy. The clips are level matched, no modification is necessary.

Channel D Seta L RIAA out:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/k6wnmy (ALAC 24/44.1 42MB)

Trulife Argo:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/o7e57l (ALAC 24/44.1 42MB)

The Seta really holds up quite well. The biggest difference I hear is that the Argo is much better at imaging and soundstage which I hear as instrumental separation in mono. In the Argo cut all the elements (singer, bass, piano, percussion) seem to exist in their own space where are in the Seta they are a bit homogenized and flat. The Argo has a bit better tonality; the singers voice is slightly fuller and more "alive" for lack of a more objective term. The Seta is a bit faster; listen at 3:55 for the transient attack.

Finally, I have attached a shot of me ABXing the two files since I wanted to make sure I could still hear the difference unsighted.

 

Chris,

I just gave both files a listen. I feel there is no comparison between the two really The Argo, for me, wins hands down on this clip. It is more nuanced, it is more tonally correct, it has more "life" to the sound. In fact, I'm not sure I even agree with the transient attack of the Seta being better. The Argo has more flavor and provides it more correctly.

What is the ADC you are using? You might have mentioned it somewhere, but would be nice to know. Also, you only recorded the left channel? Amarra didn't "mono" it for me

This was fun! When I setup my mono cartridge, I'll record the same clip and upload it for a listen. See what you think...

 

ADC was a TASCAM DA-3000. I record DSD128 and then convert to PCM. For mono records I record stereo and then make a mono file from the left channel. The frequency response is identical 20HZ-20Khz L/R on the Zyx and mono encoding saves disk space.

Looking forward to checking the result from an actual mono cartridge!

 

New Sutherland phono pre for $900.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/axpona-2017-two-phono-preamp-designers-show-their-newest-designs

 

I saw one listed on audiogon earlier, looks like it's roughly a wall wart version of the ph3d I use. Lower end of Sutherlands product line, but sounds great.

 

I didn't watch the whole video but I believe that's what Sutherland said. Simplified the design for maximum efficacy on the current production lines for his higher-end things so he can sell for a very reasonable price.

 

Fremer has a blind phono pre-amp comparo going on with clips:
http://www.analogplanet.com/content...ly-phono-preamp-if-you-are-using-mm-cartridge

All of them are sub $1000 except for one. (Lehmann Silver Cube)

Don't forget to use replay gain as the files are not loudness compensated.

Spoiler: My thoughts

I thought 2 was the best by a pretty large margin.
3 comes a close second place but I felt the tone was a bit goofy... could just be the BA of tone of the UERR/UERM.

Fairly large gap in performance down to... 4, 7, 8 are all OK (listenable & enjoyable).

Another gap in performance down to 1,5,6 are all bad (ruining the sound).

IMO if anything this little test is really showing you how the phono pre really can make or break the vinyl front end...

 

I ran through these on the weekend and am anxiously awaiting the reveal. I am hoping that my favourites are relatively cheap as I am looking to break into the vinyl world. I was quite impressed with the sound of the modest Rega table! A lot of it seems to come down to personal preference.

Spoiler: Impressions

It was a tough call for me between 1, 3, and 4. I ended up choosing 4 because the dynamics blew me away. I think the low end may have been a bit rolled due to the slightly off timbre of the keys. If I ended up with 4 I would try to fix the low end with the rest of the system.

Here are the rest of my notes;
3 - the most neutral to me, but a little bit flat in dynamics. I can see why this one will rank high overall
1 - split the difference between the characteristics of 3 and 4. Not as neutral as 3 or as dynamic as 4
7 - very pleasing but a little bit warm
6 - I noted this had the best timbre on the piano
5 - forgetable but not bad
2 - flat and boring

 

Quick question...not specifically regarding a phono preamp, but preamps in general. I wasn't sure wher else to post and didn't want to start a new thread.

I added the Vali 2 to my TT chain temporarily mostly for the decent headphone out. So, it's phono pre ==> Vali 2 ==> receiver.

General preamp practice...what is the best position for volume on the Vali 2? Turn it up half way and then use the receiver to reach desired volume? Or is this the type of thing that will vary depending on the specific equipment?

 

Just a heads up, the follow-up and results were posted:

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/eight-phono-preamps-identified-and-votes-tallied

 

I'm thinking about taking a punt on this NobSound / Little Bear phono preamp:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MM-MC-Phono-RIAA-Pre-Amplifier-Mini-Stereo-Turntable-HiFi-Stage-Line-Preamp-Box/272295841492?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Here is a picture of the PCB:

https://ibb.co/f9xiev

Specs:

Reminds me a bit of the TC-750. Would anybody be willing to offer an opinion on the design? Looks okay to me (not that I know what to look for!). It has AC input. Maybe it could be as good as the TC-750 but without needing to upgrade the PSU?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

There is another version of this phono preamp that uses an external PSU / transformer.

With the external version, I would be able to substitute a better power supply. With the internal version, I am stuck with the implementation on the board.

I'm not sure of the quality of the PSU on this unit, I assume it is an LPS? Are there any sonic disadvantages of having the PSU internal for a phonostage?

Many thanks.

 

I think there is no real answer from your question, but depended on the implemetation/ design of the PSU and your phono preamp. Having an external PSU for phonostage/preamp in general reduces noise from the transformer (magnetic leakage) and from switching diode (EMI). Keep in mind phono preamp is very low level signal, so it helps a lot. But there are no free lunch here. Because of putting the PSU far away, the output voltage is not as clean as from the internal PSU. And the speed and dynamic of phono/preamp is worse. To minimize that effect, it is mandatory to build a local PSU inside the main signal chassis with enough reservoir Caps to provide fast transient and enough power for the signal path.

For example, as I see in the Goldmund Mimesis 22H, they use an external PSU with transformer + LM317/LM337. But inside the main signal chassis, they built another local PSU (the Walt Jung PSU) with 20000uF multiple reservoire caps, to provice better regulation for the signal path

if the external PSU version of your phono preamp doesn't have local built-in PSU in the main chassis, I think it is not an improvement over the internal PSU version, rather a trade-off. It will sound different, no doubt, but not better.

 

There doesn't seem to be much shielding between the transformer and the rest of the circuit on this particular phonostage

I imagine one possible good implementation could be to have the transformer external and have a big ass reservoir capacitor on the board to supply the circuit.

I've spotted another Chinese phonostage that looks interesting, apparently inspired by the Naim Nait 2 circuit. Will post pic later.

 

The other phonostage is here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stereo-Class-A-Phono-Preamplifier-MM-Turntable-Vinyl-Record-Player-Hi-Fi-Preamp/282242787522?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Pic of board:

https://ibb.co/fkYjnF

Looks clean and simple, MM only. Biggish reservoir capacitor. Probably sound good with a linear power supply.

 

From what I saw, there is a local PSU in the main board, so yes, there is probably no problem. But I must warn you, this product will not sound like a real Naim phono preamp at all. From what I know about Naim, unlike Gryphon or Goldmund, Naim's topology is pretty "loose", and the choice of component will effect the sound significantly. This phono preamp can sound from good to really bad, so good luck.