Prism Callia: Flush your Schiit

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by HitmanFluffy, Jun 8, 2020.

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  1. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Is the Mercury supposed to be a step up from their Director dacs?

    There's a Burl DAC with dante on USAM for $1800 right now which isn't terrible.

    You can usually find a Prism Lyra on sale for much cheaper than the Callia, which gets you 93% of the way there.
     
  2. mokobigbro

    mokobigbro Acquaintance

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    I haven't heard their new "Mastering" converters yet. We use their adc dan dac in the mothership but really curious on their new mastering converters (with transformers options)

    The dac that was very impressive that I've listened to in the studio is Bricasti. We compared it against prism lyra, forssell, benchmark, burl, avid io and universal audio 2192.
     
  3. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

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    @HitmanFluffy
    If this dac is Hampden, does that mean that schiit dacs are Smith and Cross ?
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I'm trying to decide between the Burl and the Callia for the loaner. The Topping D70 is getting returned. I'm trying to triangulate from the impressions but I still can't get a sense of the tone of the Callia before deciding. Is the Callia warm like old smelly console with dead rats in it warm (Motu Ultralite) or swarmy as in Modius SE outs warm or organic rich-cake Yggdrasil A2 warm? Is the "impressive sense of air" anything like the the RME ADI-2 or Topping D70 which I found excessive and artificial (recorded air always sounds wrong to me and I hate mastering engineers who crank the last octave up).

    @HitmanFluffy: I noticed the Torpedo 3 amp up there. I assumed you used the SE outputs of the Yggdrasil A2 for this comparison. Just mentioning this because the SE outputs of the Yggdrasil aren't competitive against today's better DACs. Where you able to do a comparison between the balanced outs of both DACs?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  5. famish99

    famish99 Friend

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    To me it was close to Gungnir Multibit A1 in warmth. It has a touch more air than the Rockna so take that for what you will.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Found out @brencho got the Callia. Good chance I may pick up a Burl for a proper DAC-off. Heck, we should do a blind test.
     
  7. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    Anybody tried the Crane Song Advocet IIa? I expect it to sound similar to the Solaris, but there might be some differences?

    I LOVE the external wired control dock! It's exactly what I need for my setup (DAC & preamp shared between PC / monitors and headphone rig). A bit tough to justify the +$1400 if in the end it just sounds like a Solaris, though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  8. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday!

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    The Torpedo is entirely decorative, and the bulk of my impressions are from speaker use.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You didn't answer my question. Also what speakers now that you mention it? Pictures or it didn't happen. Last I had heard, you had an SET amp (SE obviously unless you built your own BAL to SE LL xformer) built by OJ and were maybe considering Voxactivs? You know the standard drill here, details are crucial. You don't post enough and no one really knows what your component chain is, or even if it was consistent or the same one used for successive source evals.

    If you never eval'd Yggdrasil with its balanced outputs on your speaker system, just flat out admit it. It's just information. No need to be coy or embarrassed by it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  10. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I currently have the Solaris and the Forssell (and a Yggdrasil A2 and a Matrix Sabre MQA and a DA10 and on and on, which is why I’m selling lots of stuff!). I think @Armaegis ’s take on the Forssell is almost dead-on.

    The short summary is that the Solaris and the Forssell are the ones that I’m keeping, which has made me finally come to the realization that @Psalmanazar is correct in his overall take on the superiority of pro DACs to consumer ones. (All of my comments below are based on balanced hookups to a Rag1 or Monoprice 887, with a Kramer passive XLR switch, FWIW. Headphones are Utopia or Verite, speakers are KEF Ref1.)

    The Forssell is a step behind the Solaris in raw detail (macro and micro). But I consider the Solaris the most resolving DAC I’ve ever heard, especially when fed from a good USB to SPDIF or AES converter. The slightly treble-centric sound of the Solaris isn’t for everyone, though. It emphasizes “air” more than any other DAC and things like acoustic guitars can sound more mic’d up the fretboard on the Solaris versus the Forssell or Yggdrasil, both of which emphasize body in comparison.

    The Forssell’s stage depth is slightly shallower than both the Yggdrasil and the Solaris. It has much less air than the Solaris, but is on par with the Yggdrasil in both macro and micro detail. (It’s very similar to the Matrix MQA in detail, but with better overall tonality and a more 3D imaging.) Most importantly, the Forssell might be the smoothest, most “analog” (in the sense of listening to the master tape, not the vinyl) DAC I’ve ever encountered. (A long-term demo with a Berkeley Reference might change this, but that’s the only other DAC I can think of that had this feel.) Despite being DS, I think the Forssell tops the Yggdrasil in this sense, while also removing the slight haze I think the Yggdrasil has, even in its A2 form. (I haven’t heard the Unison USB, so I can’t say how that impacts this.) The Yggdrasil still has the best slam of the bunch, but I don’t see it topping the other two handily in any other category. I feel that overall dynamics are better on the Forssell, despite not having quite the bass slam and texture of the Yggdrasil.

    I just got the Lavry used at a fraction of the price of any of the other DACs mentioned, and thus far it’s impressed, especially at a cost/performance ratio. But I haven’t done any really critical comparisons, so I don’t feel comfortable with further comments on it yet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    1. Rme and topping are just total crap. They’re not even worthy of being talked about with this stuff. The adi2 is mediocre and maybe worth 500 bucks for what’s inside in. 500 bucks in 5 years ago gear terms. Now you can get better than any rme gear for 600ish. There are so many gross problems with the units and they just are small and gross and thin sounding. Listening to rme is like what I imagine trying to have sex with someone dying of anorexia and her hair is falling out and shit and she doesn’t even get periods and it’s supremely unpleasant. They make everything run through them sound like shit and there’s no saving it with analog gear. I don’t think rme knows what the hell they’re doing. The power supplies suck balls and are more fragile than external switchers, the external switchers they use are crap and probably not cleaned up as well internally as they claim, the sound sucks balls, there has to be lots of bullshit going on in the dsp. There’s really no defending them and they’re just as colored as anything else. The rme midrange is just wrong and off color and gross.

    2. Prism just sounds good and has detail but is warm in a worse way than the MOTU. It sounds good with popular mucus with a fat, punchy, almost processed sounding upper and mid bass like it was compressed with a good analog compressor but there is no mud or reduction of the transient for more “weight”. The MOTU requires for that to have been dialed in on the recording or to use tubes and the compress it unlike Dangerous and Schiit. The lynx has this cirrus punch in a Much more tame inoffensive manner but the Prism desktop boxes just run with it like they were thinking back in 2003 or whatever “hey cs4398 has this weird punch. Let’s make this DAC punch like a mofo for classic rock and 90s rnb”

    3. It’s fairly obvious when any thing has been run through the desktop Prism boxes. The dreams and ADA8 or whatever rack mounts don’t have this but keep the treble quality. The voicing on the desktop ones is more hifi and prosumer, almost like it’s a mastering effect for modern music even if the treble would just obliterate the hits on Spotify and reveal all the imd and aliasing and other crap. The treble clarity is to die for (you can pick out what sounded like shit) but there is a sheeny shelf like the Dangerous but more detailed. The Prism just sounds good and doesn’t strip anything out like the Dangerous. Commission vs omission. The sounding good and usually better than what was run through it is supremely important because often with analog loopbacks in modern work flows (better than using plugins or tape dub downs), the sound of the da will be imprinted forever on the recording. I wouldn’t mind 8 channels of it or whatever for 3000 bucks but the Usb is Xmos and they just got Dante and I’d need the Audinate card and I’m just out of the converter upgrade game until i get build a better computer with a pcie card. If I need more channels, just getting more motu right now.

    4. The issue with the Burl is that the AD can be bettererizing but it can also add mud and that the DA can be betterizing but also be colored as f**k in a way that just lies and sounds unpleasant. It’s worth trying but the tone changes based on how hard you hit the discrete opamps. Like a lot of gear this can be awesome or hell on earth for tweakers. It’s hard to make it sound rme bad, it’s just colored as f**k in a way that changes with gainstaging. Burl is a well built converter that just gives analog gear good ness but not exactly. You’re still better off with a nice well build clean converter and buying analog gear. This is why I hate the newer Schiit multibits. They regressed in tone to pleases the masses with shit setups. They went all schizophrenic when what they were trying to do was really obvious on the og ones. I’d rather just use a McIntosh piece or forgo disgusting metal tweeters. The Burl is like this sort of (somewhat schizophrenic) but bigger sounding, more analog colored than muddy like newer Schiit even if that can make it muddier and washed out than newer Schiit could ever dream out but it’s unafraid to give braindead people the finger. It just won’t cleave their skulls in for clipping and treble aliasing like the workhorse RME, Lynx, and MOTU will.

    A lot of the references people use really are that mushy and 2d. Even Daft Punk ain’t great by the standards of pre 1995, pre Waves limiter or so music releases. They went hardcore on the production of the last record like a 70s-80s coked out million dollar record and then rejected the unlimited Bob Ludwig master in favor of some 2d crap.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Damn, now I really want to get my hands on a Forssell.
     
  13. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    I got the Burl B2 w/ Dante.

    The guy who sold it to me actually had experience with some of the DACs I was considering for the near(ish) future (M3, Wavelight, Wavedream). According to him:
    • The M3 has a very similar tonality and overall performance compared to the Burl, with maybe a tad worse bass quality
    • The M1SE is an upgrade to both
    • The M21 is an upgrade to the M1SE and the one he's going with.
    • He didn't like the Rockna Wavelight because the sub-bass (very fun and punchy) and mid-bass felt disconnected and the mids were not as vivid as the B2 and Bricastis.
    • He felt listening to the Audiobyte VOX was like listening to high-quality midi files (which I laughed very hard to :D): very good sound stage and details, but a flat and fake plasticy timbre.
    • He didn't listen to the Wavedream, unfortunately
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  14. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    [Silently prepares self for Marv to totally demolish my summary in a few weeks.]
     
  15. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

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    @brencho has a Callia, @Clemmaster has a Burl. Guess what..
     
  16. Hinterlander

    Hinterlander RobS / neomax

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    I feel like there should be caveats before any impressions of the Gungnir and Yggdrasil. When I read the SE outputs being "gimped", it seemed like an exaggeration. But the SE outputs truly can't hang with the BAL outputs. It's not subtle either. I've had a few active monitors with no DSP (discrete class AB amps) and other standalone amps that take balanced, but its more than just overall clarity that gets improved, everything else about it sounds better. Like SE Yggdrasil sounds like an unimpressive, barely better than "mid-fi" DAC. It sounds more compressed and hazy. A lot of the criticisms I've read against the A2 versions are those using its SE outputs, which ain't good. That's not to say BAL removes the shortcomings of the Yggdrasil, but it's clearly better. Schiit needs to undertake a complete revision of their analog output section.

    Even that said, I have to agree with HitmanFluffy. I've never considered the Yggdrasil a "reference" DAC or totally neutral. It has a particular sound to it that you don't hear in other delta-sigma pro audio converters. Personally I like the Schiit multibit house sound, it sounds cool, with the flowing transients and is far more engaging than other converters I've had in my system. I'd like for the transients to be a bit faster that imparts even more realism (the Convert-2 does this sometimes). There is some comission from the filter to dial in a particular soundstage (what HitmanFluffy said about adding spatial information), but it doesn't omit as much information in the recording as the Convert-2 does. Frankly I've given up on chasing the dragon for "reference" since every reproduction of music is a re-interpretation, and that reproduction is far more impacted by speakers than DACs. So I'm going to go for a system that reproduces the sound I like the most and enjoy.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I can find so many reasons to not consider many "reference" pro-audio DACs reference DACs. Lavry DA11 isn't resolving enough, has a micro-stage, and is murky in the lows (using SPDIF instead of USB will help, but it won't transform it). Convert-2 doesn't resolve low level information and staging is weird, but it's great if I want to listen to The Rolling Stones and Judas Priest all the time (RATM is too good for the Convert-2). Solaris has mushy lows and is tilted bright and a bit sterile, but amazing soundstage so maybe, but seriously do I have to use a dark speakers and amps? Benchmark DACs, ugh yeah, sorry, the antibiotics they used also wasted away the patient to 68 lbs, they're also an audiophool brand putting on the clothes of pro-audio. The Burl, which I had not heard, is supposed to be punchy and colored, but in nice way.

    With consumer DACs, the Rockna Wavedream I wouldn't consider reference because it reminds me too much of vinyl and has a bit of mellowness which makes it unsuitable for understanding of how the product is going to sound on any other DAC in the world, except maybe some MSB DACs. A-GD Master 7 was infected with MOSFET mist, PWD2 with rasp. Bifrost 2 sounds too much like vintage R2R. Gungnir A2 may be the most "reference" of them all, but has cool mid-bass and emphasized, but sweet upper mids.

    So when it comes down to it, I'd rather use Motu UltraLike mk4 or Modius (BAL) as "reference", which is totally justified by their measurements. Or maybe the Avid Desidesigns that are pretty much standard issue today in the sound houses (they sound like butt, but they do their job).

    --

    But this is all bullshit because I'd tell myself to f**k off with that above statement.

    WTF is "reference" anyway. A reference is simply that, a reference. The best references are ones that can do a few specific things well and are familiar to the target audience. And anyone who cycles gear on a regular basis is not allowed to the word reference. They haven't stuck with anything long enough to understand what they are looking for, their internal references, and thus are automatically disqualified from using the word reference.

    C'mon guys, don't be retards.

    @Hinterlander: Please don't take this personally. This conversation has already happened on CS, probably in 2012. I get annoyed when issues which I think have been resolved rear their heads again. The concept of something being "reference" having to be something that you do not enjoy, but what you think "reference" should sound like instead is utterly ridiculous. Let's not even get into most audiophile speakers that can't do anything below 180Hz without high distortion or have screwy frequency response.

    SBAF: This is my reference. I have been using it for X years.
    Head-Fi / Poser: This is/isn't a reference piece of gear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  18. Hinterlander

    Hinterlander RobS / neomax

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    LOL nothing personal. I agree with you. I interpreted "reference" to how HitmanFluffy used it in the context of his review meaning what is faithful to the recording itself. That is the less a piece of equipment imparts its own sonic character on a recording, the higher is the fidelity, as it gets closer to a faithful reproduction of the recording. That's what "reference" means to him, if I'm understanding him correctly. That of course begs the question: what is a faithful reproduction of the recording? How is that determined? By who or what? We're back to the fidelity argument and this becomes more of a philosophical discussion than about the equipment itself.

    If I already know that music playback is ultimately creating an illusion, then what matters the most is getting a reproduction that I enjoy. I think it is incredibly pretentious for a HF'er to say "this ain't a reference piece of gear". Who gave you the authority to determine that?
     
  19. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    My Gungnir MB SE>Saga>speaker amp>speakers sounds better than Gungnir MB bal>Jot se>speaker amp>speakers. The higher noise floor of the Jot as pre vs. the transparency of the Saga more than makes up for the benefit of Gungnir's bal vs. SE outs. Just another data point.


    Edit: This is true whether the Jot is in low gain or high, but I always use low gain if using it as a pre. It's even more true in high gain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  20. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Man I really should have taken notes when I had the Solaris last year and updated my headfi post. Oh well.

    Between the Solaris and Prism, I'd actually rank the Prism higher for "air". Sort of a Galadriel vs I dunno maybe Arwen sort of thing. Meanwhile Forssell is enjoying second breakfast...
     
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