Rings of Gold: A Tale of Eight Bifrosts

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    Perfect, awesome, Thanks!

    I bet it will not have the XO's, and this is also the fall back "buy better gear" circuit they use in the Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil - but maybe it will be a surprise!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  2. HIFIDB

    HIFIDB New

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    I have found the 9th and 10th rings, I was able to get a Gungnir 4399 card and it worked. I have not been able to determine if the inversion is for balanced processing is on the Gungnir or on DAC card. I currently only have the Bifrost 4399 card for compassion, for my ears i could not tell the difference run threw my Jotunheim. Unfortunately I don't know how to post a photo yet.
     
  3. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Are you saying that you put one of the DAC/analog stage boards from a Gungnir in a Bifrost and it worked?

    From memory about half the board (top half, top face) looked identical, or extremely similar, between the D/S Gungnir and Bifrost units, but I think there were more significant differences on the bottom half (bottom half, top face). My memory could be faulty though.

    Even so, I would think you'd either only get mono-output, or the "2nd channel" would be the inverted form of the first.

    Would need @schiit or @baldr to comment further there (or someone that's more familiar with the guts of the Gungnir D/S than I am) ... and I'm pretty sure the comment is going to start with "Don't do this"! ;)
     
  4. HIFIDB

    HIFIDB New

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    Yes a single Gungnir DAC/analog board fits on the Bifrost. The Gungnir board has more parts on the bottom then the Bifrost but the interface pins line up. I can confirm that the output is stereo not mono, but I do not know if their is a phase difference between them as I have not had a chance to look at them on an O-scope.[​IMG]
     
  5. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Fascinating.

    I'm not only surprised that it works at all, but even more so that the output is actually in stereo.

    That would mean, I would think, that the phase inversion is done ahead of the DAC/analog board, and then the DAC is simply a two-channel implementation and in the case of Bifrost it's fed left/right channels and for Gungnir each board gets one source channel, but one in normal polarity and the other inverted which are fed to the DAC/analog boards "left" and "right" channel inputs.

    Rather clever on the planning and design front if that's the case.
     
  6. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    Hi @Torq,

    Are the Bifrost mainboard pics (the AK4113) still on your todo list? Maybe you sold it... not sure though. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  7. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    It is - I'm just in the middle of moving house, so it'll be a little bit before I get to it. Hoping to be fully into the new place by the end of next week, at which point things will calm down a bit.
     
  8. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    No hurry at all, just checking. Enjoy the new house!
     
  9. MattRG

    MattRG Facebook Friend

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    I'm going to put this question here instead of starting a new thread since it is Bifrost related and specifically relates to some of the versions in this test. I've had the thought recently of acquiring a cheap early version Bifrost just to have on hand for when they get their next upgrade. Seems like the Gen 1's and Uber's can be head for less than $300 in a lot of cases and if the next multi-bit upgrade costs the same as the current one (and is as good as has been teased) then it seems to me that one could get in to a "next gen" Bifrost Multibit for a very attractive price.

    Of course my assumption here is that the next upgrade will be happening somewhat soon'ish (say, within the calendar year) and that it will be a step or two ahead of the Modi Multibit which already costs less and has similar performance to the current Bifrost Multibit. Thoughts?
     
  10. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Regardless of the reputation of the manufacturer, I personally find it to be a very bad idea to buy something based on "futures".

    Without knowing what upgrades are planned, or when, you run the risk of either a more protracted wait than you anticipate as well as the potential that your "cheaper" upgrade path winds up being more expensive. Even planned or announced upgrades can wind up not happening .... or not happening the way they're initially projected.

    As an example, remember when Schiit revised the standard Bifrost to 4490 spec? They added the Gen 2 USB board to that model, as standard, as well, and then kept the price at $399.
     
  11. MattRG

    MattRG Facebook Friend

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    @Torq Excellent advice. Thank you for your response. I get a lot of ideas but usually need to bounce them off folks who are wiser and more experienced than myself to really be able to analyse them properly. What you say makes sense and so I will wait and see what happens.
     
  12. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Loving it so far!

    And I should be able to put those pictures up this week sometime (just in case you thought I'd forgotten).
     
  13. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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  14. auri

    auri Facebook Friend

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    @Torq - what did you take that with?

    My camera is crap, as is my lighting... as are my photog skills... at least I didn't get my foot in it... but here is a v1.25 just to round out the range of Bifrost motherboards.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Sony RX100 Mk. 5

    Hand-held, no special lighting used - just took the shot near the window out of direct sunlight (I don't have my camera gear unpacked yet, so no lighting stuff etc.).

    Original image is 20MP, downsized to about 3MP and drastically reduced JPG output quality so as not to blow the file-size limits.
     
  16. Scott Kramer

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    Beautiful pic @Torq, Thanks! First one I've seen with the AK4113 on the web.

    Just for sport, lets check it out:

    Screen Shot 2017-04-06 at 9.49.19 PM.png

    See the XO IN/OUT?

    Nothing connected, no external crystals... so confirmed, it's running in basic on chip PLL mode, 50ps+ jitter no matter what source you put in front of it. Moby is the same.

    The gun/Yggdrasil almost certainly uses this as the dumbed down, fall back "buy better gear" mode* if too much jitter/noise for the VCXO's to lock onto. If they do lock on, this would go into XO IN to reclock the pcm data.

    *this isn't necessarily thaaat bad, but ext XO's can outperform it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  17. Ryogo

    Ryogo New

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    Indeed, I can confirm what HIFIDB said - Gungnir 4399 board (Gungnir-Analog v1.02) works if you put it in Bifrost. But still I'd like to know if there are any difference with original Bifrost's 4399 board since I don't posses any.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  18. JackDaniels

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    I heard the Bifrost Uber today, it was a very significant improvement compared to MODI 2 Uber.
    But tonality and timbre was somewhat less successful, and with a little cold sound.

    Do the Modi Multi-Bit will be big improvement over Bifrost Uber?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
  19. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I'm not 100% sure what that's supposed to say, but I'm assuming you're asking if the Modi MB is a big improvement over the Bifrost Uber, in which case you can find a suitable answer in the 2nd post in this very thread. Right here, in fact.
     
  20. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I wanted to add to this thread. I know Torq is "retired", but that doesn't mean we have to stop the conversation.

    I just got a Bifrost 4490 that came with an Uber board. Here are my thoughts:

    (Note, my source is only using the coax input.)

    Uber:
    Airy, clear, and detailed. The things I like are the clean crisp sound. It gives you all those feels of the stuff that is happening around the instruments, the intimate stuff. In some quiet passages I swear can hear chairs speaking or clothes shuffling. The presentation is very open with just one problem - missing dynamics.

    I feel like the life is gone around the tracks. Passages just sounds strained and without body or space. On some tracks it can get kind of shouty. It can sound amazing with well produced tracks like bluegrass or classical, but this is not for heavy rock. There is also some grain on the mids that may attribute to it's slight harshness.

    4490:

    Now this does everything better, mostly. It looks very similar to the Uber and is practically a 4490 Uber Analog without the moniker. This is slightly warmer, but not overdone. My other DAC has PCM-1702's, and this is actually very close. The 1702's are not quite as syrupy as the 1704's, but there is more "slam" than the 4399 Uber fore sure. It is slightly more U shaped than the 4399, but my 1702's are even,more U shaped.

    Now eventhough not as airy, there is still an openness and depth and and details, just in the right areas. Sounds come out and around seemingly out of nowhere. It's an immersed feeling. Effortlesss and very liquid on bottom and solid everywhere else.

    The mid harshness is mostly gone and barely audible and only shows up against my 1702's.

    Incidentally, the 4490 is better than the Denon DA-500 with the 1702's. The 4490 has more details and immersive sound while the DA-500 can sound more holographic.

    Verdict:

    The Bifrost 4490 is one of the better sounding DACs I've ever heard and probably the best DAC I own at the moment. I keeps getting better each time I hear it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018

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