Room treatments, mental treatments, and jumping gear too often

Discussion in 'Tales from the Bully Pulpit' started by k4rstar, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    weird how everytime room treatment is mentioned, someone always points out how weird and uncomfortable a anechoic chamber is.

    as if a well treated room is in any way similar to that of a anechoic chamber. Its not comparable in any way
     
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  2. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    Exactly. A reverberation room isn't much fun either. Impossible to hear talking. You need something in between.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Because when discussions on room treatments happen, some moron, who only understands things in theory, or who has a $150k high-end home theater built into one of the nine rooms in his house, needs to point out the necessity of formal room treatments before even considering two-channel.

    Two-channel setups can be enjoyed by normal people with normal furniture. This does not mean that formal room treatments can't help.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    No shit. The dick-waving isn't that these programs exist, they do. The dick-waving is referring to the use of these programs and 40000 hours of CPU time to burnish credentials on listening rooms setups* and then admitting that one's application of this knowledge was intended for live venues, not listening rooms, and that one did not even have a speaker listening room.

    *which is pretty darn easy once you get the basics and are willing to experiment, and most importantly can actually measure and hear stuff.
     
  5. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    True, true.
    You are right, this stuff is not that hard to do. Especially for something like a listening room.
    With a listening room, you just need a few measurements or good ears. The only time you really need software is for bigger projects, a concert hall, music classrooms, or maybe even a dog kennel. But not really needed for a home listening room.
     
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    If speed or transient response was a valid issue, it would still take at least a $2.5k headphone to get that sheshal speed, and $2.5 can get pretty good speakers, and jaw-dropping amazing speakers if you DIY.

    Many TOTL heaphones have speshal speed, but the only one of these that have speaker-like neutrality is the Sennheiser HE90. Everything else seems to have frequency response screwiness compared to even cheapass monitors.

    Ultimately, speed is bullshit in that it is a preference. I'm blown away by the speed of the HEX, SR007, SR1a, ML CLX, etc. However, I am not sure that I would want these kinds of drivers in behind the perforated screens of a movie theatre, or dropping 28Hz at 100db.

    Anyone who thinks that "speed" (in excess of say a dynamic compression driver) is a measure of technical excellence is a noob. It's a preference.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    And screw ray tracing. Think radiosity where we model the surfaces and chop them up into small triangles. Then see what triangles see other others which aren't occluded, and then calculate the reflected sound per frequencies. This can be done iteratively in several ways. Maybe starting with the sound beam of highest intensity. Usually after a few iterations, the picture comes clear. No need for 40000 hours of CPU time. Just thinking in theory.
     
  8. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    Yeah, I don't think these programs, at least the one I used, used ray tracing. It was some simpler form, path tracing or something like that, I don't remember what. Had cool animation though where the sound is modeled as a bunch of tiny balls bouncing through the room. And it did stuff fast, because it wasn't actually ray tracing.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    What pisses me off is that the folks who immediately advocate "room treatments" have zero fricking idea what they are talking about or trying to achieve. Ultimately, it a matter of preferences to approach.
    • Anechoic or the absorb everything (or as much as possible) approach is often used in the smaller sound bays in pro environments. A strong reason for this is to not disturb the sound guy sitting next door! Also multi-channel theatre rooms take this approach for obvious reasons. There were some exceptions like those Century theatres on Winchester in San Jose (RIP) with those high untreated ceiling domes - man those were the best and quite unique.
    • Then there's the LEDE (live-end-dead-end) approach which seems dated now, but actually works well in the home.
    • Then there RFZ approach where it's most simple implementation is what many of us have already suggested by cutting down on early reflections.
    • Then there are those super high-end places with that diffusors everywhere.
    If I had the money and time, or was willing to die a lonely man with only an awesome listening room, I'd choose the last option because I like "live" sounding rooms. This is a personal preference.

    Anyone who doesn't even ask what one's preferences are to determine a suitable approach, and just spouts out "no two channel until room treatments", should just STFU.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  10. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    y'all need to put up some tie dye sheets on the wall and smoke some weed.
     
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  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    If my lungs weren't wrecked from last year and if that stuff didn't cause me short term memory loss or make me want to eat 5 burgers and 10 chocolate bars, and I don't even like chocolate that much.
     
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  12. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    What I did in my room to deal with early reflections:

    1. Sat closer
    2. Toed in the speakers toward my ears

    Can’t be done in every situation of course, but when you can do it, it can work well.

    I did this by pulling the speakers out further into the room, as well as moving my chair closer. And it took some experimentation and listening to work out the right angle for the toe-in in order to get good image focus as well as not too much brightness from the tweeters.

    Now I sit midfield around 7-8 feet away, vs 10+ feet I was before, and the speakers are pointed about 1.5ft to the outside of my ears. In addition to cutting down the early reflections, the actual soundstage and imaging improved as well and the speakers disappear more. It’s been a major improvement from where I started, which was killing me with early reflections and had a pretty narrow soundstage.

    Cost: $0
    WAF: 100%
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  13. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    I've got tapestrys of the doors and the Beatles, pink Floyd, king crimson, and Genesis posters, and a gold velvet couch, I think I'm good for my treatment. Plus a bong I made from a whiskey bottle.
     
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Every now and then is fine, but don't do that stuff too much. A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste.

    The media and Hollywood, controlled by aging baby boomers want to make the hippy era look cool. They just never showed you the fallout: the fried brains, and that fact that you can only be a successful hippy if you were a trust fund baby (the unsuccessful hippies went homeless, insane, and crawled into a ball and died behind the liquor store -or- shot themselves in the chest).

    My experience living in Satan Cruz in the early 90s made me hate the hippy lifestyle and by extension, the Grateful Dead. I don't think I've ever been around so many fried brains. I'm concerned for our kids' future because weed is now legalized in so many places. I'm torn but really can't disapprove because I dislike state control even more than hippies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  15. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Friend

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    I started my room on the basis of thinking I knew what I was doing WRT to room treatment, via online "research" and "education."

    What I had five years ago at the start looks NOTHING like what I have today. In fact all I have today are a large absorption panel on the rear wall because I have to sit so closely to it, it helps tame reflections, and a large, corner floor-to-ceiling bass trap I tuned with REW to tamp down massive bass decay issues due to the small room size.

    Everything else was summarily dismissed after trial and error revealed to me that the absorption was killing dynamics and creating wonky L/R channel imbalance due to an imperfect room (like there's actually a perfect one anywhere...). I also learned that poor furniture and/or equipment placement can absolutely sterilize and deaden a system. I had a large 2 x 4 shelf containing vinyl in it at the front-center of the room, between the speakers. I had equipment on top of it. On a whim I moved it and the entire system opened up like never before.

    I have a little diffusion placed around the room, notably in areas where a simple clap produced slap echo.

    Other than that, the room is lively and engaging with deep, accurate bass response. It's not perfect, but it took an honest look at how I treated it first, without knowing better, to address it. I also have a buddy who has invested gobs of money into room treatment, doesn't measure a damn thing, and constantly trades out expensive equipment chasing a unicorn sound that he's probably treated entirely out of the room.

    I doubt this helps, but I'm just sayin'.
     
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  16. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    LSD fried more brains than weed ever did, but yeah, too much of anything is a bad thing.
     
  17. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

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    @Hrodulf it all depends on the speaker too. I sometimes like the unnatural tightness (meaning it won't sound that way on anything else or in real life) of some sealed speakers but most modern ported speakers aren't fart rockets, have audible chuffing, or the old chocolate syrup sounding Mackies. The ones that do tend to get called out. You can also get unnatural tightness from many ported speakers too. Overall it is not how a drum kit sounds in actuality or a recording will sound in the real world.

    @purr1n so many great recordings were mixed in cheap control rooms with treated first reflections, some bass treament, and just a ton of rugs and couches. Very often those mixes are better and way more interesting than the stuff done in million dollar studios. some music studios still use live end, dead end. So many great records were made in all in one room studios too. Abbey Rode, Whereever the Stooge's Fun House was done, Paul Orifino still does this, etc.

    and tweeters are built differently and from different materials than woofers for good reasons.

    @ultrabike hell yeah. you can walk into any instrument store, check out the big brands of mass produced speakers, and quickly realize which ones in their lineups are better than any headphone for usually well under a thousand dollars. It's not even very difficult and can be done pretty quickly with some well known test tracks. Usually one or two of the sizes will be a major cut above the other ones. If you set up those particular model at a high end trade show or dealer showroom, it will usually be among the top speakers there as most of the boutique stuff is worse and the guys who make really good sounding stuff for reasonable prices (under 2k for two ways, under 10k or so for huge, loud three-way full rangers) don't need to go to a ton of trade shows or have their stuff sit at a dealer for a decade to move.
     
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  18. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    I dont think anyone would prefer to keep early reflections unabsorbed if they were to compare absorbed vs unabsorbed: its been shown time and time again how they are detrimental to accuracy and SQ. The ISD-gap is indeed a preference thing.
    Acheiving a -15db within 20 ms for the early reflections will always be "preferred". How much secondary reflection you'd like to have back at the LP is a matter of preference, but I still think there are basic guidelines and well established facts about what most people prefer.

    yep, the absorb everything crowd are simply misguided.

    about LEDE vs RFZ:
    "RFZ is a method to reach the LEDE criteria (in terms of response). If you use absorption or angled walls to redirect the early energy doesn’t matter as long as you keep the first 12ms (or so, but preferably a tad longer) clean from early reflections (-20 dB or lower) and manage to keep a strong enough return after the ISD-gap. It´s a stubborn misconception that LEDE is “obsolete” since RFZ is a way of accomplishing a modern LEDE room."
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    That's debatable because RFZ can imply angled surfaces, flush mount, soffit, etc. Whereas LEDE implies a shitload of absorbers in the DE of the room.

    LOL, that sounds like a HF'esque kind of argument using the the inverse of excessive compartmentalization. Please don't tell me you got that from a rando on GearSlutz.

    In terms of a response, might be true. But methods are different with LEDE taking more of a brute force approach.
     
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  20. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Personally, I find a little foreground out-of-focus dick waving easier to look past when useful information is presented otherwise (like that breakdown of amp-pairings on page 1). It's unfortunate there needs to be (IMO) disproportionately eager dick smashing. In the meantime, the guy was pointing out overly reductive shit like "all headphones suck compared to $300 speakers" is a stupid way to look at things, which is actually true. Moral of the story? I guess that...you can be overly reductive and troll threads manly meme style (validated by predictable manly meme likes), just don't wave your dick while you do it or try to respond to it. Also, the responses to this guy had a fair bit of dick waving as well. This thread definitely deserves to be in How to Win Friends.
     
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