Room treatments, mental treatments, and jumping gear too often

Discussion in 'Tales from the Bully Pulpit' started by k4rstar, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    A LEDE design doesnt need a shitload of absorption, just well placed panels at the early reflection points. You need very big room to adequately use angle walls and diffusion to reach the same target using a RFZ design. but the point is that both design try to reach the same target when it comes to -15 or -20 db within 20 ms for the early reflections.

    the RFZ concept came from these guys
    From the original paper on RFZ:
    “A design for implementing a LEDE control room is proposed.”
    http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11598
     
  2. Lyer25

    Lyer25 Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Unsolicited butting in again:

    A lot of the talk on here resulted in furious googling and reading on my end, at least what reading I managed to cram in between planning a surprise birthday thing for my dad with the family (went off without a problem other than I might have nearly gotten run over by the car— hah!), so I'd definitely say this ended up being a net positive thread for speaker ignoramuses like myself.

    When has schlong slinging not been a part of forum culture? It's unfortunate and really kinda fatiguing, but that's just how some people communicate on the internet. And in person. As long as people can resolve things amicably eventually then at least it'll not have been for naught. As a pure theory noob at this point I'm just really fucking glad to get more than one perspective preaching dogma since that might eventually come in handy.
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    It's semantics. LEDE implies a certain implementation that is different from RFZ. Absorbers vs. angles/diffraction.
     
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  4. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Yes. The only possible way to learn something properly in a discussion is from someone with opposing views to your own. Even if he's talking shit. Otherwise it's an echo chamber that goes absolutely nowhere.

    On the topic, it's absolutely the case of preferences or specific design needs. What I find strange is that audiophiles mostly ignore Schroder's frequency, resulting in sub-optimal sub-bass. A simple 2.1 system could outdo any room treatment or 2.0 configuration in that regard.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    It's not an opposing view when it's talking shit. There is a difference between opinion and misinformation.

    Misinformation: formal room treatments are necessary before even considering two-channel audio
    Opinion: get mental treatments before room treatments so you don't die a lonely audiophile
     
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  6. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    I'd argue that even in this case, a learning is achived. The guy talking shit will hear something different, that perhaps makes sense, perhaps for the first time in fact. And you who know better, could (rarely) perhaps stumble upon something that's interesting. Never miss on the opportunity that maybe the other guy knows something you don't.

    I do agree that repetitive misinformation gets really boring real fast, though.
     
  7. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Right. And when you debunk that misinformation, you instill some hope that the other party sees the light. That's what discussions should be about. Arguments, logic, not ego's. Nobody's omniscient.
     
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  8. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Friend

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    If it matters, I did need another set of ears to come in and confirm what I thought I was hearing. I'm kind of on a lonely journey with audio in general. Not many around here into it like I can be, so online is about the most interaction I get. Trouble is, it's only reading and interpretation at that point.

    The other issue I run into is that those I do know around here have very different goals for what they want their systems to do. I'm starting to learn that while I don't listen to their music or their preferred types of instruments (live, unamplified, simply mic'd being ideal), that if a system can convey that accurately, it can also convey my music well too, with but minor quibbles over certain tonality or aspects of presentation.

    In any case, the worst part of this hobby for me is not knowing what I don't know and feeling completely unsatisfied until I know. And then the goal posts move in my own head. And I've found it can be expensive to enlighten oneself without much of a reference system to draw from.
     
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  9. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Friend

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    The one thing that sets this place apart, in my short time here, seems to be that while there are passionate opinions, few seem to be so set in their ways as to be completely unwilling to entertain a different perspective. In short, seeing through the bullshit. Other sites, some worse than others, are no better than Red Sox fans trying to bring Yankees fans over to their side in a neverending tug of war with analogies and and odd justifications for one observation or another.
     
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  10. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Yes, well, you will be made fun of for a differing oppinion here.

    Which is fine and drives the dynamic of this place. That's something I didn't know before and got too upset about. There were other causes back then that destabilized me but yeah. Of all the places online, this is the only one I still visit. Some folks here are just absolute legends.
     
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  11. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Yep lots of great folks at SBAF, and sometimes voicing your opinions loudly is a one way ticket to the dislike train, but so fucking what? The occasional STFU post and dick waving is well worth the for the most part excellent information you can get, even from people with wildly different tastes in music/sound signatures. Then you know best what to avoid and where your own taste fits in. Just don't take shit on the internet too seriously ;)
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I have noticed that many of the people who keep spouting this nonsense about room treatments (this has been going on years now!) are doing this because they only know headphones and operate from a sense of internal poverty, mistakenly thinking that "real audiophiles must believe that speakers are superior". Speakers are just different from headphones. They are both enjoyable in their own way. We can argue about the pros and cons, but I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. I have headphones at my desk at work, at my desk at home, and MA900s and IEMs in my bag. And when I get an opportunity, I will enjoy music from my speakers at home.

    Notice that people who actually do have speaker setups will encourage headphiles to at least try speaker setups without any mention of room treatments. I don't know how this continual "oh, you are going speakers, you will need room treatments first" keeps coming about. This isn't the first thread on this topic. Is this misinformation coming from HF? (Considering that in the early years, Jude was trying to push headphone systems an inexpensive way to getting the same "fidelity as two-channel setups which was the domain of old rich farts.)

    And when it comes down to it: Just Do It. All that worry about formal room treatments, even if found to be necessary later on, is absolute nonsense, especially when headphiles make $1000 of purchases of rare vintage toobs, cables, and other sundry crap accessories for their $349 Lyr 2 based system. May as well make the opposite argument: Don't do personal audio unless you set aside 1700% planned budget for the proper cables, connectors, adapters, vintage tubes, bling, and the inevitable desire to have a collection of 23 IEMs, 2 from Jerry Harvey, 21 from Asia, of those 17 from Japan, and of those, 2 from weird Japanese boutique designers who look like anime characters with frizzy hair or a Japanese version of Ric from Ric and Morty.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  13. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    People probably see that stuff in studios and think it's pro and they must have it or something
    It's quite amazing how little average person understands or knows about nieche topics, and researching takes genuine interest and sometimes a lot of time, if you aren't lucky to get proper info on the first place you go. Considering HF usually is the first place you go, well...
     
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  14. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    There is definitely a lot of this coming from HF BS. The number of people I see selling all headphone gears because "They're moving to speakers" on HF is ridiculous. It works both ways and agreed, both are enjoyable in different ways. I wouldn't sell either system to go strictly with headphones or speakers, and would rather spend half on each and have both, then all on one or the other and miss out.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2019
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  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Anechoic rooms were brought up by @Zhanming057 in the context of room treatment when he wanted to point out that "At the extreme, all near-perfectly anechoic rooms sound identical to each other":

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...umping-gear-too-often.8051/page-2#post-264379

    Subsequently, I also brought anechoic chambers in this context, because I wanted to point out that "I know how sound propagates in them, among other things" and wanted to convey that I felt I understood @Zhanming057 arguments.

    I believe he is making a case for headphones ("Summit Fi" rando-cans > $300 speakers), in that they incorporate a sort of room treatment in the cup design which is indepenent of the actual room, and therefore provide a more consistent and controlled sound experience to the user vs. speakers. And again, I feel he is missing the fact that headphones can't do imaging for shit given they cannot incorporate cross channels the way a humble set of $300 speakers can.

    I did not want to point out how weird anechoic chambers sound, or to make a case for anechoic chamber-like treated rooms, like you seem to be assuming. Just as I have heard sound in anechoic chambers, I have heard sound in treated rooms, and I know they don't sound the same. And indeed, treating rooms is in some ways a bit of an art and a matter of preference.

    Oh, I almost forgot... Thorsten is full of shit:
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...audiophile-listening.1466/page-52#post-261121
     
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  16. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Yeah, wish someone said this to me before I bought hd800 for their amazing imaging...

    Actually, you might toy around with the idea of imaging and crosstalk with a bit of diy electronics, courtesy of the man, the immortal legend, mr. L.

    https://www.linkwitzlab.com/headphone-xfeed.htm

    I never did it, but your post reminded me of this. I think it would definitively need an output buffer, though.
     
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  17. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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    In my European stone and concrete house i just don't like the sound without some absorption. It's probably different with houses made mostly out of wood, also European houses being much smaller does acoustics no favor.

    Leather couch is mandatory due to pets so I have to use some panels and heavy curtains. Rug is a no go either, hardwood floors on concrete it is... Without the panels talking i sound like a fucking robot.
     
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  18. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Crossfeed filters built into many players if one uses computer for audio. No need for DIY electronics.
     
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  19. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Right, and some advanced audio drivers / mixers for pc too. Forgot about it. True. Perfect to test it out.

    Although, if it's doable in a dedicated hardware box, I like that more. More modular, adaptable, don't need to be specific about this and that, works with everything. Could be a software based dsp, don't care, just make it external and I'm happy.
     
  20. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

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    Damn he's the same guy who designed all the iFi overpriced crap. They don't sound good, they don't sound particularly cool, they're very mediocre, they're super overpriced for their mediocrity, they're just overpriced trash.
     

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