SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. Broberto

    Broberto New

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    Curious if you have heard or considered the Matrix SPDIF-2 at all? Not a lot of feedback out there versus Singxer and Gustard but seems promising as a DDC - apparently gets even better running a Matrix Sabre DAC in sync mode to utilize the SPDIF-2's clock
     
  2. dreambox

    dreambox New

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    Interesting, I also have it, and it's best what I have to make my USB sound good.. Seems it depends. One note though.. optical is perfect in U12, much better then coax in my case. I tried different DDC (topping D10, Melodious MX-U8, Allo Digione ), and U12 is definitely not waste of money for me.
     
  3. ReAlien

    ReAlien Acquaintance

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    Did direct A/B comparison of Modi MB with my portable DAP Opus 1S (tracks started at the same time and switching is done with an input button on my THX). I could hear no difference worth mentioning, frankly speaking. Sometimes I seemed like Modi Multibit is more engaging but mostly it was imagination.

    So my plan to buy Modi Multibit is canceled. Still looking for a stationary DAC able to play like the Opus 2.
     
  4. Lautreamont

    Lautreamont New

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    I tend to agree. I have a Singxer SU-1 and a Gustard U16 and a Schiit Eitr. I bought the SU-1 and then the U16 because I wanted a (relatively) inexpensive DDC with I2S out. I have more confidence in the SU-1 build quality and drivers but the U16 just wowed me with the sound quality. Using it with an LKS DA004 DAC and Elac Navis (powered) speakers and music that is really well recorded sounds absolutely phenomenal. I have discovered the Navis speakers scale really well. As I keep upgrading components they keep sounding better and better, and the U16 kicked things up a notch versus the SU-1.
     
  5. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Hmm, there's a local guy with a Crane Song Solaris for sale... I'm kinda curious to go check it out.
     
  6. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Has anyone used the Metrum Jade or Adagio as a preamp as well? How does it compare to other preamps?

    I've confirmed with Metrum and the volume control is the same in each, so it doesn't matter which unit you've used.
     
  7. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    This is an interesting outlier in the preamp space. Given what a (good) TVC costs, if Metrum is competitive it would certainly up the value proposition. Hell, versus TOTL TVCs the DAC would be free.
     
  8. skem

    skem Friend

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    @msommers, I have Adagio, and have tested Silk Audio's TVC and a carefully built PassB1. Without doubt, Adagio is the most transparent — as it should be because of how it works: Metrum's volume controls simply adjust the voltage going into the DAC, not the signal coming out. As such, they do not need to content with harmonic distortion. But yes, the price of this (very simple) circuit is high. I wrote a review of Silk TVC vs B1 here. Explanatory measurements are here.
     
  9. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I did have the Adagio for a while and did some brief tests to see how its preamp functionality affected the sound.

    At worst, there were minor subjective changes. As crazy as this might make me sound, I've heard bigger differences swapping pots in specific amps. So, extrapolating from that, the Adagio probably changed the sound less than introducing a passive preamp would have. The built-in preamp functionality worked quite well, put simply.

    Some private measurements I took of the Adagio at varying preamp levels did show changes in static tests, i.e. common THD tests. Curiously, the Pavane always measured noticeably better than that Adagio, even matched at 2V RMS SE output, but subjectively the Adagio was superior. This was prior to the Pavane having DAC TWO modules as an option.

    I tried asking Metrum about this but could never get directly in touch with Cees. The guy emailing me didn't seem to understand my question, or didn't want to, and kept saying things like "measurements are hard" and that my results must be wrong because of the specs they had on paper. And, you know, there could have been a weird interaction with the Adagio, with how it works, and my measuring process. Or maybe their specs are full of shit. No idea. Still loved how the Adagio sounded, though, and would highly recommend it, the Pavane, and maybe their mid-tier products too for high end listening.

    Anyway, I would think it makes sense that varying the input voltage to the DAC module will change the output performance to some degree. But we're still talking changes to static measurements that are probably below our normal hearing threshold. And we seem to hear differences in things we can't measure anyway, so it's all made up in the end.
     
  10. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I very briefly (as in 15 minutes) had the Onyx in my system but it seems it was damaged during shipping. The right channel was completely dead and any volume changes on Freya resulted in a small 'pop' every time I clicked the volume a notch.

    The dealer is willing to get me a brand new unit allowing me to not bother with repair shipping, time etc. However he does have a black Jade in stock, and now I think I may just opt for that. There is someone locally who does have an Adagio and that would be an interesting comparison (tough guy to get ahold of though).

    The preamp section on the DSJr was fine. Until I heard Saga and later Freya and I just could not go back. The stage just sounded like a pancake, relatively speaking.
     
  11. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Not trying to take away from your desire to try this DAC, but just going to mention what I had pointed out in my impressions of the Onyx with speakers - staging was somewhat closed in and not much for layering, at least not compared to Gungnir Multibit (and definitely not Yggdrasil). This was also with Freya. Freya can only take you so far with a source that doesn’t stage well IMO. Not sure if others impressions differ.

    Did you try out the Gungnir Multibit A1 you had picked up yet?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  12. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Did you try opening up the Onyx to see if any DAC modules or other parts came loose?

    This can happen. The modules are tough. Just get them re-seated. Sometimes the push-on power and data cables come loose too.
     
  13. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I have tried Gungnir A1, still have it, and it's definitely not as warm as I remember. It's a Schiit product, they don't make warm stuff. I will write things up later when I have both dacs working again, and have my DigiOne Sig up and running. It's all incoming.

    From memory compard to the DSJr, A1 has got knife-sharp edges, powerful and impactful bass and a top end that seems accentuated. DSJr was more laid back did not lack detail, space or air at all. Comparatively, it was more fluid and less "staccato" or stop-n-go.

    I'm moving this weekend but I'm wondering if grey glass RCA quad in Freya will tone the top end down.

    @Hands No I didn't bother opening it. I want a product I know that has been built and received in intended condition/sound. I don't want to be in a position to wonder if that is how it's supposed to be or if I need to fiddle with something else.
     
  14. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Agree with you on the not opening it up. Especially when buying from a dealer, you should expect a 100% working product from the outset. Next thing you know you open it and the dealer somehow blames you for breaking it.

    As far a Gungnir Multibit A1 being knife edge sharp, maybe more warm up time + SPDIF from DigiOne Sig will help, but maybe not. I get the sense you really want a smooooth top end and fluidity. Maybe you will like Onxy/NOS then, although I still say the stage is a problem though. I would say if Gungnir Multibit stays this way for you, definitely never buy a Yggdrasil A2.

    There’s gotta be other DACs out there with a smooth top end quality that are still fairly detailed and can stage well (and doesn’t cost megabucks).

    I’m actually really interested and curious to try the Border Patrol DAC SE.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  15. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    You guys are a bunch of babies! :p
     
  16. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    We prefer the term “wusses”.
     
  17. skem

    skem Friend

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    I was curious about @Hands observation that the Adagio measured differently at different volumes---so I went and measured mine. These are 1 kHz test tones at 3 different volumes (indicated by the peak level in Vrms). The plots are all normalized so the 1kHz tone is at 0dBr, that way you can compare the distortion relative to the fundamental.

    Ignore the fact the noise floor is falling relative to the fundamental (because the volume is getting louder and noise floor is constant).

    What you see is that the even-order distortion falls as the volume goes up; in other words even-order is more or less a constant relative to the noise floor. But the odd-order distortion stays at almost the same level relative to the fundamental. I'm guessing this reflects the symmetric architecture in which two DAC modules are used to correct each other. Even-order distortion is cancelled but odd-order survives.

    In any case, the 3rd order distortion is still acceptable at -82dB. It is not as low as can be found on some OS DACs, but it is well below where it makes any difference to the sound.

    Low Volume
    [​IMG]

    Medium Volume
    [​IMG]

    High Volume
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  18. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    Interesting because there are people on this forum who complain about Schiit DACs being overly warm.
     
  19. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    IMO that is within the Schiit realm, which is incredibly popular here. IMO Schiit is classically clean, forward, detailed and hard hitting, not just in their dacs but everything.
     
  20. Sonorus

    Sonorus Facebook Friend

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    I totally agree with your observations about Gungnir Multibit A1 and they reflect my point of view.
    Eventually I ended up selling it.
    Same thoughts apply to my mjolnir 2.
    Although it is overly a warm amp and you can tailor the sound a little bit , at the end no matter the tubes are used there's always a zingines and a little brightness - ringing at the upper registers.
    The same and worse was with my old Valhalla 2.
    I guess it's the house sound.
     

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