Schiit Bifrost 2

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by RobS, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Hard to say if the measurements were abysmal. Honestly, I don't trust that guy because of his penchant for borking measurements. 3rd order and 5th order for the 1kHz tone are kind of high, but many discrete R2R DACs measure like this (well, not quite as bad). ASR said via listening tests that "highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion". However, it's unlikely that the high third order would be heard, i.e. the third order harmonic of 8kHz is 24kHz, well past the hearing range of someone Amir's age, which is more likely be to 14-17kHz.

    However, the sharp slope (actually the square wave ringing that doesn't seem to settle) may have to do with this. What I don't understand is why ASR calls the linear phase filter "anti-high end" or a "classic" slope. Many other DACs have this sharp slope or either it can be dialed in via options. I don't know of any super high-end DACs that force users into using minimum phase, but this kind of hyperbole is typical for ASR. FWIW, I personally dislike the sound of minimum phase filters, but they are great for lower latency for gaming.

    John Atkinson's measurements however are far more damning. The 0dbFS 60Hz tone has a second harmonic of -43db and mysteriously the 1kHz signal test (the standard test for practically everything) is omitted. This is going to be audible, and for the sake of not extending the goalposts I've set in regards to a reasonable view of measurements, I would have categorized as "shit".

    JA's double standards in regards to vendors who will support (or not support) MQA is disturbing. It's also kind of suspicious that Amir tackled PS Audio shortly after they went direct sales.

    Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if ASR borked the Bifrost 2 measurements too! Sorry, I just don't trust that guy, because unlike @atomicbob, he doesn't have a consistent suite of measurements which are applied at every time, but rather he seems to change his methodology, make up his own definitions for stuff like dynamic range or ENOB, and goes hunting / cherry picking for issues. Although it's probably harder to bork measurements now since Schiit releases their own AP-555 measurements.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  2. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    I never used USB directly from computer, only various streamers. Summary for Yggdrasil A2:
    1. Before I got the Unison test board, AES from an Auralic Aries Femto was the best source, better than any USB source, including microRendu with ultracap PS.
    2. With Unison, original USBridge with split power (Sbooster LPS for USBridge board, SMPS for Sparky) was better than AES from Aries. Sold Aries.
    3. Pi 2 Designs Pi2AES with Meanwell 24V SMPS, AES to Yggdrasil, sounded maybe even a tad better than 2, on an informal test.
    TL;DR Unison with a decent USB source is excellent, but there's maybe still a bit of room for improvement with either better USB sources or an excellent AES source like the Pi2AES.
     
  3. TristanL

    TristanL New

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    I just got my Bifrost 2.
    Question: when I choose my output format on my pc everything from 2 ch 24-bit integer 96.0 kHz and below works and emits signal to the dac into the amp into my headphones.

    When I choose a format of 176.4 kHz or when I select a 192.0 kHz output format, I hear the Bifrost 2 making a clicking sound (as it does when changing to any other output format),
    however, when I select 176.4 kHz or 192.0 kHz as output the sound stops coming through. I'm using optical spdif.
    When I switch it back to 96 kHz it comes through again. Am I missing something?

    My computers support up to 192 kHz sample rate for optical audio playback.
    Or so it should, gonna try USB next
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  4. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    It is not that uncommon for sources to support only up to 96k sample rate via toslink. Don't have BF, but my Gungnir will playback 176/192 files via toslink if the source will send them, so can't imagine BF wouldn't. Have you used that pc with another dac where it successfully sent 4x redbook pcm via toslink?
     
  5. TristanL

    TristanL New

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    Yes, thanks! Works with USB. Looks like Apple lied about their optical output specs on my model of macbook pro.
     
  6. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Many optical transmitters and/or cables won't work above 24/96 reliably.
     
  7. TristanL

    TristanL New

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    Thanks, I noticed!

    I gotta say, this is a fantastic sounding DAC, and it's only been on for an hour or so!
    Coming from an odac+o2 combo, I've always felt my dac was the weak part of my line-up.
    Btdubs, also really love the styling. As recommended by other members, I'm gonna get an Asgard 3 to pair it with.
    I'm very happy! The things I felt / heard were missing are now present.
    What a difference! Very happy customer!

    I was looking at different amps and headphones as on other forum was suggested. Luckily someone here mentioned my dac. It solved everything I felt was missing so badly. I'm a little stunned what a difference it makes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  8. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    It would be a complete waste to use Toslink in this case anyhow. First, optical Toslink is, generally speaking, the worst input you can use. Second, (and most important) you have Unison USB! Use it! :punk:
     
  9. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    I find this to be very cable dependent. I read somewhere that optical ports that have the little hinged doors can scuff the optical strands at the end of the cable during insertion, which will make the cable unable to go to the full 192 bitrate. I was maxing out on 96 on an older cable on another DAC, so I grabbed a cheap cable off Amazon and it works fine at 192. I wasn't particularly careful about plugging the old one in (apparently you're supposed to insert at an angle to avoid any contact with the end of the cable) so that explanation would make sense. USB definitely is the better input on this DAC, however.
     
  10. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    Oh, you can get proper optical cables and that improves the theoretical ceiling somewhat, but that's only true for pro applications.

    The TOSlink spec is intentionally very lax so that adding a port doesn't add a noticeable amount to your BoM, and as part of that there's quite a large amount of jitter allowed.

    Commercial transmitters - especially those in motherboards and laptops - tend to skirt the very limits of the spec if not go beyond that, because why do more when 99.9% of the users can't tell if they even use it at all.
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I've been listening to the new Bifrost as time has allowed, thanks to @zerodeefex. My thoughts:

    - Agreeable tone. I hear it as relatively neutral, with good extension on both ends. As a nitpick, I actually think it's just a hair too lean in the lower midrange. Acoustic guitars in particular ever so slightly lack that full-bodied reverb I expect. But, thankfully, it doesn't sound lean as a whole, nor is it bright. Seems like a straight shooter to me.

    - Timbre is very good. Does not have the congestion or grain of the Modi MB or older Bifrost MB (most of which I believe is inherent to the AD8512 I/V opamp, because I've tried others in that stage).

    - Has a punchy, tight sound, with good clarity across the board. Low-end sounds fairly clean. "Blackground" is good. No real sense of haze or grayness. Now, I'm not saying it's the ultimate DAC in this regard. You can find sharper, faster, more vivid sounding DACs. But the new Bifrost sounds very refined.

    - Going back to acoustic guitars...While I thought a bit of body was lacking, I will say the strong resolution is coupled with a sort of coherency to the sound that made things like finger picking seem rather real. Nice rendition of the ridges in the strings rubbing against skin, coupled with the pluck shortly after. It's a subtle mixture of macro and micro elements that piece together nicely.

    - I think the new Bifrost could be a bit harder hitting myself. It has a very slight sort of impact and sustain softening across the board. 99% of the time, it's not an issue, and the overall clarity is a worthy trade off over the DAC possibly sounding uncontrolled.

    - Coupled with the above, I feel the stage on the new Bifrost isn't forward nor too far back. In and of itself, I think this is a good thing. Layering is good, so generally all the 3D staging stuff is done well. But there are times where the slightly muted peaks reduce a sense of realism. In the usual, live "Hotel California" track, the crowd going wild, whistling, yelling, clapping, etc. just barely fell a bit flat. It's like the DAC was holding things back, just a bit.

    Summarizing all that, my only real nitpicks with the DAC are a slight lack of body in the lower-mids and a slight softening of dynamic peaks and sustain across the spectrum. But these are slight. As a whole, it's a very balanced, technically competent, refined sounding DAC. It's an appreciable step up in refinement from the Modi MB and previous Bifrost MB when viewed as a whole.

    Now, as for Unisom USB...

    I forgot you said this as I was doing my A/B Unison vs SPDIF tests (usual DigiOne Sig SPDIF as I've been using lately), so I was somewhat relieved to re-read this before posting my findings.

    It's actually some of these reasons you mentioned, if I'm understanding you correctly, that make me think Unison actually sounds...pretty poor when it comes to digital inputs. And this was after I tried several USB sources and cables, anything to try to change my mind.

    I mean, I've spent all this time getting away from soft, bloomy, grey, unfocused, dull sounding digital sources, especially USB as a common culprit. And here we are, right back at it.

    To me, Unison sounds like a USB input from a decade ago. Going to SPDIF resulted in a sizable gain in focus, dynamic heft (of which Unison if pretty poor), and adding necessary contrast to the sound.

    Unison initially sounded like it added additional layering, but, in the end, I found it more just that it sounded relaxed and passive.

    Unison is just too muted for me. Now, that said, I even went so far as to use the stock switcher PSUs with my DigiOne Sig, because the LPSU and/or batteries made it sound a little too soft and mushy for my tastes. It's totally possible my preferences fall outside what is more accurate in this case, and maybe Unison is just a more accurate portrayal.

    Still, when I listen to something like a recently produced, last gen Bifrost MB, and swap between its G5 USB and SPDIF, the differences aren't so stark. And I generally find the Modi MB and older Bifrost MB to be fairly source sensitive, even if not quite as technically competent as the new Bifrost. I suppose it would be interesting to try Unison on the previous Bifrost MB and see if I hear it as similarly dull on the new Bifrost.

    It's too hard to guess, really, since the only place I've heard Unison is on the new Bifrost.

    I'd still recommend the new Bifrost, even if all you use is Unison, but that might only be because the previous gen Bifrost is no longer available. On top of that, though, I'd say consider investing in a good SPDIF source with the new Bifrost.
     
  12. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Nice impressions @Hands, thanks for that, and great comparisons to help zero in on things.

    Regarding your Unison comments, this is something I’ve been picking up on lately using some SPDIF/AES sources as well. Compared to Unison, there is an increase in dynamics/transients, some might refer to as “PRAT”. There just seems to be a *snap* and a timing thing that is lacking in Unison (and USB in general, although my USB experience is limited to a handful of other DACs, and nothing I’ve had for some time other than a cheapy iFi Nano.) This snap comes through big time on my Arcam CD73 (SPDIF), and to a lesser extent in my Pi2AES (AES out) into Yggdrasil.

    I do not get this snappiness however from Eitr (in fact I found Eitr even duller sounding than Gen 5) - I assume this is likely because it’s starting off as USB and essentially going through a similar USB circuit as Gen 5, before becoming SPDIF.

    One negative I can say about my SPDIF/AES sources compared to Unison however is they do not sound as clean/clear as Unison - there is a small amount of grit/noise that seems to be present on both my sources that doesn’t exist with USB into Unison (even though I am using an LPS with the Pi2AES).

    As you say, which one is telling the truth? As usual, it likely only matters what you prefer. I’m kind of on the fence at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  13. Clemmaster

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    You guys just like the hardness of S/PDIF. It makes things more exciting, but also more tiring.

    Unison has none of that. It's not warm poo or glass needles like USB 10 (or even 3) years ago.
     
  14. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And I'm glad I'm not the only one that's heard this difference.

    The Eitr is kind of funny, because it's overall surprisingly good, but has some quirks. I agree that it's probably because it's acting more as a middleman than an internal G5 USB card.

    I haven't yet heard the Pi2AES, but I can't say I hear additional grit or noise from the DigiOne Signature. Unison is dirtier sounding in comparison. And, interestingly enough, I run the DO Sig with two of their stock, switching wall warts, because they somehow seemed to present the cleanest, most dynamic sound compared to LPSU or batteries.

    Of course, if one wants to soften or warm up the sound a bit, LPSUs and batteries come in handy with the DO Sig.

    That's like saying, "You guys just like the extra contrast ratio and clarity of a 4K OLED. It makes things more exciting, but also more tiring." while you're using composite video cables into an old 720p LCD.

    OK, yeah, that's a very strong, and not totally accurate analogy, but I actually get what you're saying. My comment about using LPSU or batteries with something like the DigiOne Signature was a segue to this reply. SPDIF doesn't necessarily have to be hard sounding.

    Actually, SPDIF can be really shitty. But what I've commonly found is that the SPDIF input on most DACs have a fairly high performance ceiling, with USB leaving you stuck with whatever you get on each device. In all but some rare cases, I find most DAC USB inputs don't quite match the performance ceiling of their SPDIF input.

    Either way, I though this would be a good time to clarify that SPDIF has just as many variables in sound as USB, but is more likely to better serve those looking for a wider range and higher ceiling for optimization.

    In my case, hardness is not what I'm looking for. To me, that brings to mind memories of something like the early Jotunheim amps. Fast, sharp, incisive, but with some brightness and other issues that led to fatigue.

    You can have speed, clarity, focus, incisiveness, dynamics (maybe most important), etc. without causing fatigue. Let's say you're driving, and your windshield is dirty. What I'm looking for is a way to clean the window. What I think you have in mind is making the sun twice as bright to overcome the dirty window (and, no, don't try to think of that as brightness in audio). Or possibly purposely making your window dirty, because of light sensitivity, when you could instead wear sunglasses.

    Now, if you like the softer sound of Unison, and if that's an important way you've tweaked your rig to meet your needs, that's cool! But, on the other side of the coin, I have no issues listening to what you'd call a "hard" SPDIF source with a good DAC for long periods of time. Unison in this case would be "boring." And this is coming from the guy that's been called a warmpoo fan (admittedly, people misunderstand my tastes).

    USB to me over the years, unless a really bad implementation, hasn't really sounded like warmpoo or glass needles. It has generally just been dull, soft, grey, hazy, lacking in dynamics, whatever you want to call it. Just shy of being tangible. And that's the same difference here. Unison to me feels as if it's taken a step back in tangibility. It's hard for me to hear past that.
     
  15. gridmaster

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    I'll be the first to admit I'm definitely not an except on the exact technical details of digital audio transmission, but I've observed a few things with listening. Referencing my post here

    I found most integrated USB is not great, not exactly sure why. Off-board USB DDC from my experience, vary wildly in performance. There's a breadth of difference between Singxer SU-1 (bad) -> Eitr (decent) -> Singxer SU-6 (great).
    I've tried a handful of others as well.

    Then within the sub realm of DDC, whether they are USB or Network connected, then you have the outputs. SPDIF has to be controlled by PLL, I2S direct does not. With USB DDC, the USB protocol itself can be controlled by PLL, but I'm not sure most are, I know the SU-6 is. With SPDIF relying on PLL, that goes into how good the internal oscillators are within the DAC.

    And then there's the accuracy of the crystal clock itself, is it oven controlled, what MHZ is it running at, etc...
    Many complex factors go into digital transmission of audio, and I'm not privy to it all. I just know that simplifying SPDIF v.s. USB v.s. I2S is a simplistic way of looking at it. That's why I spend more time determining the quality of digital transmission with my ears, v.s. what the specs are on paper. This has brought me to use the Lynx AES16e and Singxer SU-6 as my primary digital sources. Both I would consider at the same technical level, with differences that boil down to preference.
     
  16. jnak00

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    My Bifrost 2 arrived the other day. I did some A/B testing using a Sonos Connect playing tracks from Tidal, with optical to the Bifrost and Coax out to a Modi Multibit. Both these outputs are active on the Sonos all the time, and my Asgard 3 has the now-defunct optional RCA input card, so switching between the DACs was as easy as flipping the input switch. The volume levels between the two, at least to my ear, were equal.

    I actually found it very difficult to perceive any difference between the two. The Bifrost seemed to push the soundstage a tiny bit further back, and there was a very slight increase in clarity, like looking through a clean window vs. opening the window and looking straight out. I would not be able to ID the two DACs in a blind test. I also tried switching the input types, running coax to the Bifrost and optical to the Modi and the difference was more evident, but still very very small.

    Running Tidal from my PC via USB, however, made me notice a much bigger difference. USB is a bit softer, less edgy sound than from the Sonos. I cannot say for certain that it's the USB input, but I do get the same impression as what @Hands and @rlow say above with regards to Unison.

    Now I'm sure a lot of you are probably discounting what I'm saying because I don't hear a big difference between the Modi and Bifrost. Which is certainly fair, but I guess my point is, even with my apparently gimped hearing, I can easily hear the difference between USB vs SPDIF. And I think I prefer SPDIF to Unison, although I'll still use USB for convenience.
     
  17. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I'm skeptical of the Sonos Connect's quality when used as a digital output device (and, no, not because of the ASR measurements). Have you tried other SPDIF sources, either comparing against the Connect with other devices, or different SPDIF sources on either of the Schiit DACs?
     
  18. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I have several Sonos Connects. They are not even close to a Dante digital audio delivery system. In fact I'm considering putting mine up for adoption. Blue Sound is better, but still not close enough for me to use over Dante.
     
  19. jnak00

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    The Connect was just handy so that's why I used it. I don't have many other sources that would be better (Chromecast Audio? Sony Blu-ray player?)

    I've not looked at ASR measurements on the Connect. I had no idea it measured poorly. It's like 8 years old or something so it's no surprise there are better products out there.
     
  20. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    Hmmm, the first-gen Gungnir Multibit I owned a few years back (I think it had USB Gen 3 or whatever the gen prior to 5 was) and from memory it was a bit more direct and harder-hitting, and the Bifrost 2 is indeed a bit softer and less dynamic. I hesitate to use "bloomy" as a descriptor, but there does seem to be a tubey quality to the general presentation that I find really appealing, but I'm also not a fan of aggressive-sounding equipment. I wonder how much of that can be chalked up to the USB input vs DAC implementation/filter differences?

    FWIW I'm absolutely loving the Bifrost 2 after 10 days. As stated above, it's a tad softer and less "grab you by the balls" direct than some other DACs I've heard, but I experience listening fatigue really easily and the Bifrost 2 keeps me listening for hours without any discomfort. I haven't had any issues with metal songs sounding overly laid back or mushy, but this DAC definitely makes it easier to listen to poorly recorded and mastered material without sounding like it's sacrificing ultimate resolution.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019

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