Schiit Bifrost 2

Quick follow-up, I spent a little time earlier going back and forth between the coax input (Oppo BDP-103, FLAC from a thumb drive) and Unison (laptop, Bifrost has its own USB hub, xDuoo X10TII w/ split signal/power cable, power from portable USB battery), and it didn't take much time at all to recognize that Unison is head and shoulders above the Oppo's SPDIF. The snares and cymbals are the dead giveaway, they're significantly clearer and more natural sounding. The overall sound is more focused in terms of microdetail, imaging, and separation, and subtle details/textures/spatial cues are better resolved. Coax sounds a tad muffled and hazy.

This is contrary to what I said earlier in the thread that coax was still superior to Unison so, my bad. I am, however, getting a very irritating popping sound with bass from the xDuoo on some tracks, but not from the laptop. Will figure it out sometime, going to be listening and enjoying for the remainder of the night... using my laptop as a source (kinda gross tbh but I can't argue with the fact that it sounds better, will need a good USB transport in the future, but have higher priorities for the time being).

 

purr1n, does the Bifrost 2 have some of the bolder tone colors as the Yggdrasil A2? Some folks have said the presentation of the Bifrost 2 is similar to Gungnir A1 which to me is more greyish, smoothed over, duller sounding to me (I'm not talking about the blackground here, although that too is really grey compared to the pitch blackness of the Convert-2). The Yggdrasil A2 definitely has more "color" that pops out, that makes music much less uniform sounding than on the Gungnir A1. I need more bite from my DACs, which I get from Yggdrasil/Convert-2.

The Yggdrasil A2 is far more detailed than the Gungnir A1 (and Convert-2), although it does come with noise in the background but not quite brought up to the foreground like the Gungnir. It definitely has a blacker background than the Gungnir. I actually like the presentation of the Yggdrasil a lot in how much detail is thrown at you, really awesome with the HD650s.

I get the noise in the background was a design choice by Mike, as he puts it here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...fat-2-at-schiit-blog.3507/page-42#post-196264

 

What MM was writing about is not noise, it is the sound that is not music that exists on any good recording with real, physical instruments in a real physical space. For an awesome example, listen to the opening track of Jordi Savall's Llibre Vermell de Montserrat through your Yggdrasil A2 system. Air whooshing through the church, muffled steps, singer breaths, score pages flipped, a cough, echoes on the church, are all placed in 3D with the instruments and voices. What else would one want? Just cued the album to remind myself, hard to put down the headphones but I gotta go to work

 

Thanks for sharing these impressions. I'm a 103D user myself. The stock S/PDIF output on the 103 (and I assume other Oppos) is not super clean. I've talked about this elsewhere on the forums, but this is one benefit of using the Audiopraise Vanity HD103 upgrade card (replaces the analog board): http://web.archive.org/web/20171026141333/http://audiopraise.com/vanityhd/details.php. I know that Schiit's AdaptiClock is adept at jitter removal and clock regeneration, but obviously the DACs still benefit from better quality sources.

 

I believe you that it's not super clean, but it's also the best transport I've ever owned up to this point. For me, the BDP-103 was a revelation, and an opportunity to separate my listening rig from my PC/laptop entirely, since its coax output is miles ahead of PC USB. I've been curious about the upgrades for the 103, but always felt my money would probably be better spent elsewhere. I will probably end up replacing the laser before putting it up for sale, since I have no idea how many hours are on the spinner and that's been people's main concern buying it off me... but now I'm getting way off track. The point is, Unison has upended all of that and negated the need for the Oppo entirely, so I'm somewhat reluctantly back to my laptop.

I'll eventually pick up a dedicated USB transport, but that market seems to be growing and evolving right now, so I'm perfectly content to sit back and let manufacturers duke it out for a while with new models, tweaks, and upgrades. I assume the xDuoo X10TII will be a satisfying transport in the meantime, once I get rid of the pops/fart-esque noises with low bass. Going to hook a Wyrd up tonight and see if that resolves the issue, or maybe an actual wall-powered USB charger instead of a portable USB battery (perhaps the battery was trying to communicate with the receiver?). Regardless, I'm happy to get the Oppo off my desk and free up some space... after all, a whole-ass Blu-ray player is a bit overkill just for an SPDIF source for FLAC files.

 

Hi everyone,

I noticed something interesting in atomicbob's residual noise graphs where one channel has more noise that started me thinking about what I am hearing with my Bifrost 2 using the SE output.

Basically, it appears that the right channel only is picking up some minor digital interference from within the unit. I can only hear it very faintly when I turn up my receiver all the way up without anything playing. At this point, I am at 127dB SPL. Obviously, I would never listen at that volume. The only reason why I tested it at that volume was to ensure the Bifrost 2 was not picking up my local airport's radar which a lot of units do. Happy to report it does not seem to pick up any outside RFI.

What I do hear, only in the right channel, is a very faint rustling sound that is rhythmic in nature and definitely seems digital in origin. The left channel is interference free. Obviously, I ruled out all the usual suspects, such as cellphones, WiFi, USB, power adapters , ground loops etc. It does it also when only Toslink is connected. As soon as I switch to an unused output or press the mute switch on the Bifrost 2, the faint rustling sound is gone.

What I am suspecting is that the LME49724 opamp, known to be sensitive to EMI, is picking up interference from some of the microprocessor-based digital circuitry, either the Unison receiver or the SHARC DSP processor.

Keep in mind, this is all very academic because this stuff is all buried deep within the noise floor and is audible only because the noise floor is so damn low and I turned up the volume WAY past the normal. None of my headphones pick this up because my amp cannot push them past 125dB SPL. I just wanted to see whether you or anyone else with the Bifrost 2 has experienced anything similar.

 

I'm confused, why does that matter if you aren't going to listen that loudly anyway? Enjoy your music man and stop listening to gear.

 

I hear you. On tracks like that, yes those sounds are very cool. I was more talking about studio recorded music, where some of that noise is elevated up. I've seen people complain of the original A1 boards regarding multi-tracked recordings having overemphasized tape hiss cause the noise floor on an instrumental track might be higher than the other tracks. Then this gets thrown in your face. It seems A2 has largely addressed this issue, but it's still there to a degree and the staging still in your face. The noise floor is recording dependent of course. But there is always some background noise present in studio recordings, music is not propagated from a pitch black canvas. This aligns with what Mike was saying in that post as music doesn't come out of complete darkness. I agree with him but then I also like how pitch black the Convert-2's background is. I'm not sure which of the two is correct. Obviously the extra sounds the Yggdrasil extracts works very well in Classical music. I actually don't mind the staging of the Yggdrasil A2 with how much detail is shoved at you with headphones, but with speakers I find the Convert-2 more expansive and open sounding.

 

Sure, but if I was only interested in listening to music, I would not even be posting here. I was under the impression that this forum was also for people interested in gear itself, its quirks and how to improve upon them. If this info can help someone else who has noticed the same thing and is wondering if it's just their unit, what is the harm in sharing?

This reminds me of the whole Magni 3 volume pot whooshing thing which I wrote about extensively when it first came out and people kept saying that it wasn't an issue because it did not happen while listening to music. Sure, but then eventually Schiit explained why it was happening and fixed it nevertheless because it is natural for manufacturers to try and improve their gear even for non functional issues.

 

Isn't the whole point of all this junk is to immerse you in your music? Why would you be interested in anything outside of that? What you posted about hearing some digital interference doesn't matter because you will never reach those volumes in any kind of listening session. I have nothing against folks airing legitimate complaints that are audible or there's physical defects of some sort like that pot whoosing. I'm just saying that is insanely nitpicky and something that really ain't worth caring about.

 

I never said I was sane

 

Then go listen to some music and stop cluttering the forum with your noise.

 

I heard back from their support and they said that they have not heard of this before (now they have), but that they are fairly confident that this is not a result of anything that may turn into a bigger issue (like that capacitor-gate). I have done some research independently and found out a number of people mentioning this phenomenon or something similar when it comes to specifically LME49720 family of op-amps - I had no idea it was a thing. Apparently because of how these chips are manufactured, a significant percentage of them have this quirk, but it is still within their specs! Fortunately for us Bifrost 2 owners, the issue is not audible, but for people that put this chip in their phono stages where gain is much higher, they have to go through individual op-amps and test them to ensure they get the most quiet ones. Live and learn.

Here are the links for anyone interested:
http://e2e.ti.com/support/audio/f/6/t/415907?LM4562-LME49720-low-frequency-noise
https://e2e.ti.com/support/audio/f/6/t/725471

On a more positive note, I have been gaming extensively with my Bifrost 2, playing exclusively Modern Warfare, which is a FPS that demands very fast reflexes. My kill ratio has actually gone up, which could be coincidental, but I am certain that the SuperMegaComboBurrito filter is helping with positional audio. The latency is totally a non-issue and in fact the gaming feels better since the audio is now delayed by 12ms, whereas before (using Modi 3), the audio was actually ahead of my video by 11ms (because my monitor has 11ms input video lag). Our brain can handle small audio delay way better than the audio ahead of video for obvious reasons - sound travels slower than light.

Overall, the Bifrost 2 has honestly been a revelation and I keep rediscovering things in songs that I have heard hundreds of times before. What has stood out for me is how correct the instrument timbre sounds compared to a typical D/S design. The differences are subtle and not a matter of night and day, but they are quite significant. Everything that the Bifrost 2 is outputting has less digital harshness and does not sound etched and grating. In fact, I noticed this the most not while listening to music but when playing games - I found myself more fully immersed in the aforementioned Modern Warfare. When I was playing this game with D/S DACs, I found myself turning the volume down to compensate for the harsh edge that sounds like gunshots, explosions and even footsteps were producing. With the Bifrost 2, the harshness is simply not there. Granted, it could be the fact that I am using the Asgard 3 which is also a very organic smooth-sounding amp, but I notice an improvement using my speakers. By the way, my speakers are Klipsch RM-15 and my headphones are HD800S, both extremely revealing and trebly transducers.

 

I've got a question I'm hoping someone here can answer.

I was reading an article on stereophile today regarding jitter and jitter rejection of DACs.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/jitterbuggin-2020-measurements

I viewed the jitter test that Schiit put out for Bifrost 2, but it doesn't seem to be a similar test to what Atkinson was posting about on Stereophile.

I went through Bob's test but I didn't see a jitter test.

Is anyone able to talk about Bifrost 2s jitter rejection capabilities. In advance - yes yes I know that toslink gets a bad rap. At this point it works best for me.

How common is the J-test that Atkinson was talking about? I wonder if Schiit would ever consider running the J-test and posting it's results, or if what they posted is good enough/comparable?

 

I got the xDuoo X10TII (portable digital transport) working with Unison the other night by using a USB battery with two outputs, one smart for 2A and one dumb output limited to 1A. I used the latter.

First, Schiit were not kidding when they said this thing draws very little power. I left the USB battery plugged in for five or six hours, and the battery's percentage was still at 100.

Second, the xDuoo is definitely better than my laptop. The laptop as a source was very good but there was just a little bit of harshness in the treble and just a little on the thin/digital side of things. Using the X10TII, there was no such harshness, and I could really hear the meatiness that R2R is known for. It pushed things more towards the warm/full side, and with a blacker background, better separation. I can definitely live with this sound until I can snag a dedicated desktop USB transport.

edit: oh yeah, I also tried splicing Wyrd into the chain, either as just a power supply or running everything thru Wyrd. Not as good as running the signal/power split directly into Unison. Probably no surprise there, but basically the Wyrd adds a subtle grayness/veil to the sound.

 

Thanks for the links. This is a big part of the reason I like SBAF- great place to learn.

 

Go to the end of the respective links below. Download pdfs attached to the posts. See page 15 for jitter measurements.

Balanced here:
Schiit Bifrost-2 Technical Measurements

Single Ended here:
Schiit Bifrost-2 Technical Measurements

 

Thanks Bob.

This testing and results was coaxial spdif right? I was asking about toslink/optical spdif. Would the results be the same regardless of coaxial or optical spdif? I have always heard the big strength of coaxial spdif has lower Jitter then optical, and can reliably handle 24/192. Where optical can be more prone to jitter, sometimes has problems with 24/192, but reduces the chance of ground loops and doesn't accept interference as easy.

So with what I think I understand stated above I'm wondering if the spdif coaxial results can easily be transferred to the optical spdif.

Thanks, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge & hard work.

 

Optical input to Bal and SE outputs added to the technical measurements post:
Schiit Bifrost-2 Technical Measurements

I didn't see any significant difference in jitter between spdif and optical input.