Shills and softies

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by m17xr2b, May 25, 2019.

  1. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    I'm seeing this more and more in various posts and recently in ZMF headphones where flaws/downsides in gear is often omitted or played down compared to my own personal experience.

    I don't expect anything to be perfect and dealing with shortcomings is the name of the game. Even if lets say gear is technically perfect there's still the tuning that's not meant for everyone so there should still be some complaints. More often than not once a product reaches EOL and eventually replaced the criticism truly starts and overshadows the previous general consensus.

    In my case I'm interested in the negatives as much or more than the positives, I don't want SBAF to go soft, I'd like a negative impression thread to overstate how bad something is as much as the positives are being inflated in the normal threads, call it the dark side, antiparticle equivalent where no one will be bashed unless there's good reason for doing so. Agreeing on the flaws should be as or even more useful in the long run.

    For God's sake I hope no one if pulling back because of feelings or a misjudged sense of respect.
     
  2. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    More than not being able to hear deficiencies, I think part of it is that loads of people share impressions at the crest of their honeymoon phase with gear. In my case something similar happened with both off-the-cuff impressions of the Klipsch HP-3 and, more recently, Campfire Solaris. I've had the former for about a year now and happily shit over it for what it does do wrong— same way I'm more of a dick to (usually IRL) friends once all those niceties become needless— but I've not been able to spend much time with the latter and could only fault it for its signature with one pair of tips and relative lack of engagement with another.

    Kid gloves come off as soon as something actually causes me pain or is egregiously flawed at the time of demo though, e.g. TH900, Ultrasone, or Grado GS2ke for the price— give me something irritating and my disposition sours immensely. Everyone has a catch like that I think, be it particular aspects of technical performance or the qualities of the individuals behind these products, latter skewable either way.

    Shill is a strong word to toss around, but I think you make a valid point in that forum sentiment does seem strongly in favour of certain makes and models. That... isn't news. Now it could just be there they're genuinely f'ing good (never heard anything from ZMF yet, same brand you spoke of in particular), but based on what quantitative measures do exist we can come to a general conclusion that the headphones released are largely euphonic, i.e. perhaps not clinically sterile but designed to elicit listening pleasure forthwith without sacrificing too much in the way of technicalities— bruh, you can't just not be human and not enjoy something like that.

    I like the idea of this thread (though it might have phrased differently IMO) and value dissenting voices— not everyone wants romance. Some want hard edges and the same amount of love they were showed by their peers in primary (zero). That's cool, we should have critical discussion about gear more often, it makes for better-informed purchase decisions! Just that I think some cans do enough well that like-minded people come together that it's hard to get a word in edgewise. Respect for those who don't give a bother and speak truthfully regardless.

    Lastly, I just realised this thread is very apropos of my new signature! Hah, I suddenly remembered @Muse Wanderer rightfully called me out for being roundabout asking after distortion on a ZMF. Verite I think? Agh :))
     
  3. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    The way I see it is that a few members just have a great multitude of posts back and forth in the same threads, which inflates the sense of a positive consensus when in reality it's just a few members generating a lot of noise.

    If some of the posts from each member on the same subjects were structured and combined into one, it would declutter threads and not skew perceptions as far. I always try to make my posts in the main threads feel summative and directive to conversation, adding new content and not just repeating what's been already said. Stream of consciousness is best left to profile posts.

    Some people just like to farm likes and inflate their sense of subject authority from having high post counts about the same stuff over and over again. Quality over quantity.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  4. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    That's why I joined these forums in the first place so I'm all for it and will probably read every new post in it religiously. That being said, voice an opinion that contradicts the mainstream and get sent to dislike hell. Personally, IDGAF, but I can certainly see how it will prevent some from fully voicing their discontent/disbelief yada yada in a way that others might take offense to. That results in either not voicing it or spending way too much time trying not to hurt anybody's fuckin feelings.

    Here's a beef I have with a company I happen to have loved for a long time and a great many people dislike: Grado. 15 years ago when I was into hi-fi the TOTL Grado (aside from the HP1/2 stuff) was the RS-1. It was priced moderately high (typing this today is laughable), but if you dug the Grado sound then they were a real step up from the 325 and RS-2. Now you have ridiculously expensive models galore, GS1k, 2k, PS1k, 2k, and all their shitty variants, and none of them sound all that great even compared to the old RS-1 yet cost any number of times its price.
     
  5. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    I'm totally guilty of the stream of consciousness stuff. I'll refrain from posting actual impressions until I consolidated my impressions to avoid cluttering the threads too much.

    I think part of the reason for the lack of negative impressions is the that if we don't like something, we just don't seem to say much about it. I know I do this; I've auditioned stuff I thought really sucked but didn't say anything in the threads.

    Then again, we do praise good gear, and good companies, and I'd like to think that the average SBAF member would be informed well-enough to recognize that even in the face of a lot of positive feedback, something just might not be for them. I'd certainly hope that most of us don't make large, blind purchases unless large amounts of disposable income is there.

    This all being said, being the gearmaster has allowed me to hear different gear and insofar I've found that my experience seems to line up with the impressions there. And while there's a lack of sample size at the time of writing, I haven't heard something that SBAF regarded positively and then hated it.

    Mayhaps it's time for everyone (including me) to do a small reality check.
     
  6. abraxas666

    abraxas666 Friend

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    From my experience I have learned to not trust initial impressions, the amount of variables that need to be taken in to consideration is vast.
    But I second the idea of people not being discouraged to post what they don't like about some gear, as long as they explain why.
     
  7. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    I have not ever been as satisfied with a pair of headphones as I have been with my ZMF Auteur (having tried many at equal to or less than their cost). However I can state 2 negatives:
    1. Generally not good for heavy metal or harder genres of music
    2. The purchase trial period is very short and levies a return shipping + 25% restocking fee
    I was willing to take a risk on them based upon reviews, most of them here. It helps that I've been venturing into older, better mastered music to expand my horizons. I do agree that it's unusual that there's hardly anything negative mentioned about them.

    Zach delivers great products and customer service, but it would be a disservice to ZMF (and to SBAF and other similar communities) to withhold honest criticisms.
     
  8. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    If you mean my posts, I'm not pulling any punches with regards to the ZMF Cans. I am genuinely really stoked on them. Everything I have posted is how I feel. I try my best to only post here when I have something more than "order is shipping on x date" and not to generate noise.

    Most of my posts are positive feedback because it is usually stuff I have bought with my own money, and I wouldn't buy shit I don't like.

    Anyhow, I'm not a shilling for anything. Am I a softie? I don't think so, because if I think a piece of gear sucks, I will say so, or will just avoid it, because again, I don't purchase shit I don't like the sound of.

    Unlike ChaCha, I'm not doing a small reality check. I post how I feel about any given piece of gear. Don't like it? Dislike button is right there at the bottom of my posts :)
     
  9. gaspasser

    gaspasser Flatulence Maestro

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    I had a bunch of shit written, but decided to keep it simple. The more I’ve learned and listened to better gear the less I care about writing my opinions (good or bad) down. I’ve also learned, for the most part, that silence among senior members is the best criticism of gear. Yes, there are many overly excited Friends who go overboard about ZMF, etc. I just look for the lack of excitement or faint praise (polite) comments of the wise ones to guide me.

    I don’t think SBAF has gone soft, just more politically savvy (edit: or diplomatic).
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  10. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Political savvyness should be proportional to the price of said piece of gear. ZMF, Focal, Grado, HifiMan and probably many other I don't feel like listing deserve some shitting on when they price their products the way they have in the past few years. As a fairly new member here I'd love to read truly honest posts especially from senior members shitting all over a product because well, it's really not worth the TOTL pricetag.

    Is the Utopia really worth 4k? Where does diminishing return come into play? Are Elears with Clear pads close enough not to warrant the 3+k price difference? ZMF headphones are all stupidly expensive and apparently different flavors but all great? Should I take out a second mortgage and buy made in China Susvara? Is any of the above relevant when the HD6XX is under $200?

    I'd love a thread where every post begins with "it sounds good BUT..."
     
  11. Divad al-Rahsir

    Divad al-Rahsir Facebook Friend

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    Having received my Auteurs earlier this week, I'm happy with them. I wanted something like a HD600, but better. That seems to have been what I got. They also look nice, which is kind of a ridiculous criteria for acceptance when one considers that the tool in question isn't actually visible while in use, but whatevs.

    What I do not like about the product was the apparent shill campaign that preceded it. Apologies for butts that are injured by that statement, but the "viral marketing" thing almost turned me off of the headphones. I also apologize if I'm misremembering reviewers getting called out for not mentioning getting comped, so if that didn't happen and I'm thinking of something else, just disregard this entire paragraph. The human brain is notoriously bad at remembering things accurately and it doesn't get better with age.

    You may have answered your own question. Something is worth what the seller and buyer agree that it's worth, and there's a whole lot of context that follows that which may not appear in a review.
     
  12. Elmer Danilovich

    Elmer Danilovich MOT:Earmen, HeadAmp, Bricasti; AKA:MShenay

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    I parted ways with my Eikon, I wasn't 100% happy with how... poorly it scale'd when I dropped my RME ADI 2 into my system, that and the bass in the end was just too over whelming. I just couldn't get to down to levels where I was comfortable with it

    That said I really respect what ZMF has done, I still feel the Eikon is one of the better closed backs especially if you like a richer tone. I'm also looking forwarding to hearing a closed back around the Veritie and I still really like and often recommend the Auteur

    How ever I've noticed with the move to a lighter build there was also a shift towards charging more for what used to be standard. An even the new upgraded hardware feels underwhelming in comparison to that original heavier "standard" metal assembly, so that said I'm not super keen on that development. But I do understand why things developed to what/where they are now. I think what they've done is made their product as a whole more accessible to a more international audience which is again excellent! An I'm quite happy to see them go in that direction, but I still like the look and feel of that original heavy metal assembly
     
  13. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Oh, is this where we are supposed to be honest about things we shill for? Okay...
    • MHDT Labs DACs: Very enjoyable to listen to. Technically okay. Overpriced in the current landscape. I don't really use my Orchid anymore but still have it. Not for most people.
    • ampsandsound: Gorgeous sound. Noise floor bothers me. If there is any, I can't handle it. My favorite sound in any amp is possibly the Mogwai SE, but it's not dead silent and I get sad.
    • Garage1217: I truly love the Sunrise and Horizon. The Ember is not great. Overpriced in current market and not as good as the two cheaper options.
    • RME: I love the ADI-2 DAC. The headphone outputs are good, not exemplary. The main phone output is rounded, a little soft, and sounds almost compressed. The IEM out is great, but it's bettered by some other options for certain IEMs.
    • Cavalli: I really enjoy the sound of the Liquid Platinum. I do not like the gain. It's stupid, honestly. So few people actually have the need for the gain on tap that it should have sacrificed compatibility with monstrous headphones to cater to real people instead. It sounds notably better with a linear power supply, but the power input is not robust and will die on you if you're not super careful. Makes me really sad. Liquid Crimson is baller. MCTH is good, especially for the price.
    • SPL: Phonitor XE is exceedingly clean, neutral, reference quality. It's also not very engaging to listen to. I find myself drawn to it sometimes anyway, and it's the best I've ever heard my MG5HX IEMs, but it's a lot more fun to listen to HD650s with the ECP L-2. Maybe not worth getting when the X exists and can be had for little more. The SE output being susceptible to destruction if you don't mute/pause your music is dumb.
    • ECP: I only shill for the L-2 w/ CineMag output transformers. It's f'ing amazing. Gorgeous. Dead quiet blackground. Zero complaints. The Torpedo 3 was unengaging and disappointing. Haven't heard the T4 or other modern offerings.
    • Schiit: Gungnir Multibit A1 is very good but caused me fatigue sometimes. Haven't heard A2. Old Yggdrasil caused me fatigue and I haven't heard the new one. Bifrost Multibit is good. Modi Multibit is okay. Very good if that's your price range. The only amp I've really found to be particularly good for the money from Schiit was the Vali 2. Haven't heard the Lyr 3 in my own setup. Jotunheim is good but sort of expensive. Saga is pretty solid.
    • Future Sonics: Spectrum G10 is my favorite universal under $200. Sound is a bit congested and not technically great. A bit of bloat and the upper bass encroaches on the mids. MG5HX is my favorite headphone I'm aware of. Can sound a little wonky on some recordings but I prefer it to my HD650 much of the time. Wish they had a universal version of that one.
    • Sennheiser: HD650 are the shit. Mine are fairly old and modded. Some minor issues like bass distortion (and fairly trash bass performance in general) and a little bit of roughness in a couple of spots, but it's the best all-around headphone in my mind. HD800 are unlistenable. So are HD700. I'm fond of the G4me Zero and One as gaming headsets. Their IEMs are overpriced in the current market. Their HiFi division is lost in the weeds and has been for a decade.
    I think that's most of the crap I act like a shill for.
     
  14. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    Go look up the definition of shill. I sincerely doubt Zach paid, compensated, or otherwise arranged to have every single person who wrote a review say only nice things about his headphones. That notion is just f'ing silly.

    Sometimes, when many people say they like a product that is genuinely unique and genuinely good, all it means is that it is good. It doesn't mean that there is some kind of giant shill conspiracy going on. HD650 is genuinely good. The Yggdrasil is genuinely good. ZMF Auteur is genuinely good.

    Many people have criticized ZMF headphones, and rightfully so. ZMF headphones aren't perfect. The Yggdrasil isn't perfect. HD650 is far from perfect. Nothing is perfect. I think we call a spade a spade far better at SBAF than anywhere else on the internet. That's the only thing I think we agree on here - SBAF shouldn't lose that. Do we need more of it? Sure, sounds good to me too. I think calling people shills just because we haven't hit a quota of bad reviews is a bad way to go about it though.
     
  15. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I think if you can pay close attention to small details and read between the lines, some of that softness dissipates a bit. That, and we have enough good data points with measurements to figure out if things are amiss without needing someone to necessarily tell us so.

    It also boils down to the fact that we tend to be kinder to those that try to engage us, to try to make their products better for everyone, and actively participate in the community. Zach/ZMF is one good example of this. This relationship did not begin overnight, but rather built slowly over several years (going back to Changstar). And with these sorts of relationships, it would follow that product outcomes are more likely to be up our collective alley.

    Mind you, plenty of folks have negative things to say, and we do rely on a variable data points. We may probe negative impressions to better understand why people hear/think the way they do so as to further our knowledge. (Help figure out someone's frame of reference and flesh out the story so others can make smart decisions based on what they read.)

    But, again, I encourage you to read very closely and look deeper. I believe what you're looking for has more or less been there the whole time.
     
  16. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Sometimes other factors come into play, for example, I had written a (nonextended) review of the ZMF Aeolus but decided not to post it and why? The ZMFs, for me, have more value aesthetic wise than sound wise. I do feel that the Aeolus were shity for my personal taste and considering their price, just like any other product I tried from ZMF (which were not that many) and the way I had initially written it would make me sound bitter when in reality I just don't enjoy the "house sound", at all, so I will eventually make a small "impressions" take instead, since I saved my notes. See what I mean? The product is good in so many ways but "it's not for me".

    I am trying not to sound super impressed with the positives (because that usually during the honeymoon stage), leaving out of the equation the so familiar "best thing ever" so common in other forums. But at the same time I am not going to bash severely on the negatives, unless they really deserve it.

    But in the end I do think that you have a good point though @m17xr2b.
     
  17. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I really gotta learn to condense my writing.

    Just want to add that I think sins of omission, i.e. not pooping on gear you have had the opportunity to listen to or otherwise experience at sufficient length to be reasonably informed of it, detracts from the forum*. It may well be that someone comes wondering whether X is good only to find benign silence and, god forbid, faint praise, and assumes it's passable.

    Speaking as a relative newcomer to the community, SBAF's merit is in its schlonginess towards things that suck. Whether or not brands so far named qualify, I'll make an effort to me more critical towards when I eventually do get ears on em :p

    *Provided context be provided and preferences known.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  18. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    I think it’s a good thing this topic was raised, we need to hold everyone to a higher standard. But doing so takes a lot of time and effort, and I’m guessing that as SBAF grew the staff may have felt they were fighting a losing battle.

    Everyone has raised good points. I believe much of it is due to a confluence of all these factors. I can attest to giving less time and/or being crudely disdainful of things that I think are bad or uninteresting. Though I’d be reluctant to make accusations of outright shilling there have been a few instances where it appears borderline. Not necessarily due to direct personal benefit, but perhaps the desire to maintain good relations with an MOT for various reasons.

    Be that as it may, the community is capable of maintaining a much higher bar. I suspect many are reluctant to speak negatively of things that are receiving a lot of positivity, and given those which comes earliest are the most excited of honeymoon period impressions it presents a significant problem as it sets an overwhelmingly positive tone right off the bat. So whomever comes along with a counter perspective is up against it from the start.

    I’ve been a member for about 3 years, and without a doubt SBAF has gotten softer. The old guard are busier, less interested, and perhaps resigned to the realities of SBAF getting bigger. We now service a broader audience, and therefore take in a broader spread of new members. As quantity goes up quality will always come down. On average the new blood contributors are much less critical, and less specific about what they’re hearing.

    I’ve done my best to carry the torch/be the change I want to see, but it’s going to take a dedication to criticism from many others to have an impact. Most of all we cannot hold back from being negative, even if we sympathize with a creator, and we must not fear being in a minority. Everyone must speak their mind if we want SBAF to continue to be SBAF, otherwise it becomes little more than a surly Head-Fi.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  19. yvv

    yvv Acquaintance

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    10 years ago buying an HD6X0 for $400 seemed to be ridiculously expensive and no one would question the TOTL status.

    I really admire efforts of ZMF, MrSpeakers, Audeze etc. that essentially are one man bands and it is perfectly understandable that in order to sustain themselves the prices should be kept very high and they are passing it on us. Problem is if we pay 10 times more for a headphone we expect it to be significantly better not just a different flavour.

    And that's the most worrying thing and the reason I find myself reading SBAF less and less. This site has been famous for being a platform for honest and open opinions, warts and all. There was no need to read between the lines there is plenty of other places for that.

    And that's another very worrying thing. I own a ZMF headphone so hardly a hater. Don't understand the collective alley.

    I think there are two ways to look at SBAF: as a closed community of audio pals or as an alternative source of unbiased opinions. If it is the former then it's OK to be friends with Zach or any other MoT. Why care about us randos who come to this site not to socialize but to learn something about the hobby ?

    SBAF was and is an invaluable source of information. I just hope it doesn't come down to just digging old threads and using the search engine.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  20. Bloom

    Bloom MOT: Bloom Audio

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    I'm glad you started this thread, m17xr2b. And the replies here have been spot on. I would MUCH rather get impressions and opinions from a community that encourages criticism and discourages fluff. There are plenty of places to go to in audio if you just want fluff. That said, I think we need to recognize that people don't always sit down at their computer, brew a cup of coffee, and carefully calculate every word of a post about their impressions with a product. And that's okay. It's totally fine to be like "holy crap, I just bought product X and it's phenomenal!" We should, as readers, know when to be happy for people when they're just posting general thoughts, and when to raise an eyebrow if someone DOES need to be called out for BS.
     

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