Soekris DAC2541 Review And Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

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    I'd buy some smart power sockets/plugs and turn dacs power in advance.
     
  2. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    All the smart power devices I looked at a while ago were pretty scary from a security point of view, unfortunately. I shudder at having an open internet port through my router firewall terminated in some buggy IoT kernel.
     
  3. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    Off-topic warning
    ------------
    I have a Bitdefender Box, which is supposed to lock down IoT devices? or am I being overly trusting of Bitdefender's claims?
     
  4. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    Don't know. If the IoT device is to be accessible from the wide internet for remote control, how can it be really defended?
     
  5. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    I don't know enough about routers/security to know if it works or not, but here is a link to more info on three different products (Bitdefender Box, Norton Core and F-Secure). Maybe someone with more security type knowledge (calling @purr1n)

    And now that I've sent this off the rails, can someone please move the last couple of posts related to IoT to it's own thread?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  6. pure5152

    pure5152 Friend

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    One random awesome thing I noticed about the Soekris 2541 is it seems to be able to detect when a source is playing and automatically switch to that source. Super convenient when you, say, are at your desktop and like to use spotify->pi2aes to stream music, but like to use usb for youtube/discord voice chat. A welcome quality-of-life improvement!

    pi2aes->bnc vs usb impressions

    How do usb and pi2aes->bnc compare? Honestly, it sounds pretty great out of usb already - maybe akin to Gen 5 USB on schiit dacs. In comparison, pi2aes->bnc expands at the sides and deepens slightly, yet still maintains excellent imaging; transients sharpen a little, clarity is slightly enhanced-- similar to the differences I heard when comparing pi2aes->bnc vs usb 5 on the gungnir multibit a2.

    That said, I think the pi2aes->bnc input has a slight U-shape, with the low treble feeling a bit more prominent, and I have to turn the volume down a bit to avoid fatigue; in contrast on USB, mids and lower treble sound more even and balanced with the rest of the frequency, and I can listen louder. For this reason alone, USB remains my preference and is what I use for the majority of the time, only sometimes switching to pi2aes for a change of presentation. (aside: pi2aes being more fatiguing has always been a problem for me with schiit dacs too, which is why I tended to prefer using gen 5/unison over pi2aes most of the times. I'm not sure if it's tonal characteristics or if the transients are just too sharp for me, or even if it's just the cable I use.)

    setup:
    - BNC: pi2aes -> nordost blue heaven bnc -> soekris 2541 (brickwall/min soft) -> starlett -> utopia
    - USB: imac -> nordost frey 2 usb -> soekris 2541 (brickwall/min soft) -> starlett -> utopia


    Yes I use bnc and not AES. I've a/b'd bnc and AES before, and while AES did sound a very very slightly more detailed/clearer, it also had more of a mid-suckout that I didn't like. Although honestly it could be different cables... see bottom comment.

    I hate to say this, but I'm not using equal quality usb and bnc/coax cables, so fatigue may be from the cable actually (if you're inclined to believe cables make a difference). I'm getting another equal caliber bnc cable soon, so we'll see if that changes anything. If it does I'll update this post and/or post a follow-up. I'm keeping an open mind.
     
  7. famish99

    famish99 Friend

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    Get a Zwave based power socket and they sell hubs that work on local network only. That or just leave it on, most R2R DACs consume well under 35W at all times. Alternatively, deal with it sounding crappy for a few minutes; my tube amp is the far worse culprit when cold than my DAC anyways.
     
  8. Syzygy

    Syzygy Friend

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    You can configure certain Wifi AP's to present multiple networks…I use an AmpliFi and have it configured for the main network our computers, iPads, and phones use, and an "OurNetwork-devices" network all the IoT stuff uses (which can't get to the main network's subnet). Both are configured on 2/5GHz bands. Also separate is the guest network, which is a time-limited "on" setting.

    All simply configured from a nice phone app that Mrs. Syzygy can operate.
     
  9. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    Hum... I have AmpliFi on one location and UniFi on the other, and didn't think of that, thanks! But then the question is how to get to the IoT subnet to turn on devices remotely, which was the original question. I'd have to set up a heavily restricted dual-homed bridge between the two subnets. Don't think I have the time or the self-confidence to attempt that, my mediocre practical network security skills are not up to 2020 risks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  10. Syzygy

    Syzygy Friend

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    Get the Teleport phone app from Ubiquiti. It lets you get on your home network from anywhere. Also, you can configure your network from anywhere using the AmpliFi app!
     
  11. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    I must say I am a fan of the Ubiquiti gear. Easy to configure and performs well.
     
  12. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Initial impressions - very similar to and a little bit better sounding 1421 or 1541. Very similar but a little more "fun" in the overall sound vs my old 1421. And yes, 100% agree with @purr1n - this adds a little bit of that extra "magic sparkle" that the 1421 and 1541 didn't have. Some of it is in the more natural decay, but it's more than just that.

    To reiterate the point mentioned earlier and answer the question that many are wondering / thinking - yes, this can easily go toe to toe with a Gungnir MB or Bifrost MB, it just has a different sound. No detailed comparisons though as I am not familiar enough with either of the above. This also beats popular stuff like RME ADI2, etc. No, it's not a replacement for the Yggdrasil, WL, M3, or the other similar $2500+ DACs, but I don't expect it to be for ~1100EUR/1300USD.

    First listen was after 24hrs of warmup. Will leave more detailed feedback soon - don't feel like typing or writing right now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2020
  13. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    TLDR Verdict: I can strongly recommend this. Whether you choose this or Gungnir MB at this level will depend on your personal preferences and system synergies more than anything - it's 50/50. If you need an AIO unit or any of the extra features on the 2541, I would have no problem picking this. As mentioned above, these are the top 2 DACs <$1500 I can think of right now (and are better than many DACs that cost more) short of an amazing system synergy elsewhere or an absolute dislike of R2R sound.
    -----------------------------------------
    I don't need one right now, but I'm very tempted to buy a 2541 used (later on) for 1) IEMs, 2) as an AIO when needed, 3) and/or a secondary chain.

    Also, this is very sufficient for AIO use. I know SBAF normally says transducer, amp, DAC, then accessories (and I agree). But with this thing, I could very realistically do transducer and then use this as a DAC / AIO for however long it takes to look for or save $ for a "really good amp" rather than settling with an OK DAC + OK amp first or having to deal with the hassle and expense of gear cycling my way up to a better DAC + amp.
    -----------------------------------------
    This is only my 2nd day of listening, but given how similar this is to the 1421, I feel that 2 days were sufficient.

    For reference, here is my original 1421 review from when I first joined SBAF. It was my main DAC for a while and I owned it until a few months ago:
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/soekris-dac1421.7064/#post-235445

    Sound stuff:
    - Overall sound: Neutral and more analytical sound but not boring or tepid - it's actually very engaging for me. "1 more song" past 2AM both nights... and tonight was via the HP out. Has the "magic sprinkles" as mentioned above. 1421 and the times I heard the 1541 were somehow not as engaging. This has the thicker and modern R2R sound, a little thicker than 1421 did. No real problems that stand out with the sound. This is something I really appreciate as it's much easier said than done for a DAC. Most DACs I've heard (including 10+ DACs that all retail for more $) all had 1 or 2 problems that stood out more (by varying degrees) than the 2 minor issues on this DAC do.

    - Staging: Middle-ish of venue staging with a slightly larger than medium stage - This is minor issue 1 - the stage feels a tiny bit compressed but it's definitely "good enough" for the price (memory is fuzzy here, but I recall the Gungnir MB had the same problem).
    Stage feels dome-like to me w/ me sitting in the middle-ish of the dome. No vague L/R/center blobs, no instruments getting blended together. Instruments are not in vague zones but exact spatial positioning could be slightly stronger - ex. if I drew out an orchestra, I'd use small non overlapping circles to describe where each instrument is whereas on some DACs I'd put a point on the paper with a pen.

    - Transients and busy music - Minor issue 2 -This is more nitpicking - as mentioned above, no real problems that stand out with the sound:
    Better than 1421 (which itself was good but not great), but still the one part of the DAC that could be stronger. Things still get a bit jumbled and congested with busy music and separation gets a bit weak but is good otherwise. Overall, for transient speed - if middle is 5/10 and 0/10 is slow, this is 4.5. Transients are a little faster than 1421 or 1541 (IIRC), but could be faster (not in terms of preference, just in terms of the ability of the DAC to handle fast transients). Some DACs sound slow b/c of filters or the like - changing filters didn't help the 2541 get faster or less congested, etc. Initial attack and the end of the decay are still slightly "undershot" at times, but less often now. Only the last tiny bit, maybe 5%, of decay is truncated off now (where as before it felt like the last ~25%-ish of a long cymbal ring was truncated). Decays also sound much more natural vs before.

    FWIW, I got a fair amount of clipping at the very peaks if 0dB output was used. This may be why initial attacks were slightly undershot. For example, during a busy drum section (the rest of band is still playing too), the CLIP light blinking corresponded perfectly with every single slightly undershot drum and cymbal attack. In the first 8 second of "The Hills" by Weeknd, at the very beginning of each of the 4 "BBBBRRRRRRRR" the light stayed on. I could give many more examples, but the point is clipping wasn't isolated to one song. The clipping won't happen if I use even -1 or -2dB output (and raise volume on the amp), but the same issues with the sound are still there.

    - Resolution + detail retrieval: Mostly (90%+) there vs Yggdrasil or other more $ DACs I've heard lately. IIRC jumping from this to Yggdrasil is about the same or a slightly smaller jump vs jumping from the Gungnir MB to Yggdrasil (once again, memory is fuzzy).
    - Plankton can definitely be heard, even if it's not as much as a "bigger" DAC.. Micro and macro are both sufficient. Could still have a little more heft in the bass (although slam was enough).
    - Highs were maybe a 6/10 fullness, mids+lows if 7/10 fullness (think typical R2R fullness, not like warm sound fullness). Nothing else stood out (in a good way) with the lows/mids/highs. I think I know what Purrin meant by bass is well articulated but saying that may imply something wrong. I agree.
    - Nothing odd to note with tonality, timbre, PRaT, or layering. No listening fatigue at all after several hours. It was also nice to hear more texture again after WL and M3 loaners.
    - Dry (-10) vs Wet (+10): -1 to 0.

    Other stuff:
    - Inputs - Like the 1421, USB and optical inputs do not suck, USB is maybe slightly better (clearer, sharper contrast, less limp sound, but at the expense of a slight amount of "edginess" and "USB sound"). This is more important to me in something I may use as a secondary or AIO where I may not be able to have a "perfect chain". As expected AES is better than both.
    - Outputs - Bal out is better than SE with more micro, plankton, and control of the sound (after volume correction), but not by a huge amount. (SE and BAL both went into EC AF as there is a switch that makes A/B listening very easy). In short, if your amp doesn't already have BAL in, don't worry about it. Don't even bother with a SE to BAL transformer.
    - Filters - didn't try them for very long, but the differences between these filters are less pronounced than most DACs that have filters. I didn't read the manual, can't tell you which one is which, but I settled on the one with "no light". Occasionally the "red light". *bonus* I never did it myself, but you can roll filters on the Soekris DACs (via upload).
    - Interface - Same as all other Soekris DACs but no USB mode 1 vs mode 2 switch on the back. If I had a minor complaint it's that the volume knob on this sample had minor tolerance / fitting issues - if I didn't grab it perfectly even, it had a mild grinding when turning the knob but the knob is not loose in any way (nothing severe or broken, just like when tolerances don't quite match and 2 things are barely rubbing each other)
    - Attenuation - cleaner than 1421 - With 1421, I could hear a small but real difference when using the built in amping / attenuation (use +/- 1db vs 0db out + approximated volume adjustment on the amp side). With the 2541, I think I maybe hear a difference. It's small enough that it may be placebo and I most likely would not be able to pass a volume matched blind test.
    - HP out - the 1421 sounded like 2 or 3 op amps probably in a cascading and buffering/isolating type of setup (i.e. experimented with simple cascading op-amp based amps out of curiosity before) but actually well done w/o typical op-amp based issues. In other words - no problems, but nothing special, really just there for convenience. This also sounds like a small op-amp based output section but it sounds better - IDK if the design changed or if it's just due to the upgraded DAC. It also retains the "magic" the 2541 manages to capture. Once again, for <$1500, this HP out is sufficient for some actual AIO use.
    - IEM use (using built in HP out) - Tested noise with the UE5, my most sensitive CIEM. From -90dB up to -51dB output, it's absolutely quiet. From -50dB up to -14dB attenuation, there is the FAINTEST amount of background noise. Suddenly get significant background noise at -13dB but this level of input would fry the CIEMs. -70 to -65dB is comfortable for me depending on the recording, -50 to -45 dB is the loudest I'd want. Less noise than my rhead or an Asgard 3. Per my THX 789 loaner review "No hiss or noise in background with IEMs even on high gain but oddly it doesn't sound like a very black background." If I mostly or only used CIEMs, I could live with just the 2541 HP out, no dedicated amp.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
  14. ushanka

    ushanka Facebook Friend

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    @penguins: Have you tried the balanced HP out? If so, how does it compare to the SE HP out?
     
  15. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Yes, I tried both HP out but not with the same headphone back to back as I generally just use BAL out for headphones and don't want to deal with swapping cables. I only used the SE out with CIEMs. Didn't notice any major differences in the overall sound or issues with either one if that helps at all.
     
  16. ushanka

    ushanka Facebook Friend

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    Thanks. I should really test this myself, but I don't have any other need for a balanced cable for my headphone at the moment - so it would be entirely motivated by the hope that XLR output is better.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    That summarized my experience, the engagement factor is strong here. @soekris is being coy and remains humble, but I know he has good ears. @soekris has to know this one is special.

    I would be curious if there will be lower line models will come out that take a bit of the DAC2541's magic at more affordable prices.
     
  18. ushanka

    ushanka Facebook Friend

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    I had this thing in hand for over 2 weeks now, enough to formulate some impressions. These should be considered as impressions for the whole system, DAC and the built in headphone amplifier. These should be taken with a big grain of salt because ...

    **Salt/Seasoning**
    * I do not own any other DACs/amplifiers to use for comparison (unless you count the headphone jack on my laptop).
    * I have not owned an "audiophile" system since 2009. I am actually rebuilding from scratch at the moment.
    * The only good transducers I have are HD650 and Etymotic ER4SR.

    Since this is my first gear comment on SBAF, here are some notes on the gear I have decent amount of experience with:
    * Best DAC I've owned is Stello DA100. I haven't heard the terminology at the time, but "velvet" is an accurate description of how that DAC sounded (AKM based). Detail didn't really come through, and I found that annoying, but the tonality was pleasant enough.
    * Best amplifier I owned was Millet Hybrid Max or RSA Raptor (depending on who you ask). I think it was MH-Max, but I also learned from it that I don't like "warm/tooby" sound. Raptor felt utterly overpriced for what it did.
    * Best headpones I owned is the HD650 I own now, although the most expensive headphones I owned are ATH-W5000 and Ultrason Edition 9 (both of these have had hilarious issues ...). I also happen to like ATH-AD2000, but I've learned the hard way that Audio Technica house sound is too incoherent to be useful for all the music I listen to (it does not even uniformly work for metal, which is my most listened to genre).
    * Best system I heard is O2 / BH (don't remember the source). I like that system a lot, but it is not a sound I would prefer for personal listening due to sheer intensity. I also heard HE90/HEV90, but under CanJam conditions, so it doesn't count.

    In general I heard most of the headphones that were popular in 2008-2009 period, and good chunk of the amplifiers also. I don't want to comment on the sources since they are much harder to judge. If you want to get some reference on how I hear the world based on gear of that era, feel free to PM me.


    **Impressions**

    Overall I find DAC2541 to aim for a gentle/subtle presentation that is never the less very detailed / resolved. I would not recommend this system for anyone looking for "in your face" or "warm" sound, but for anyone looking for something to keep your ears captive while letting you relax, DAC2541 is spot on. I don't have a good sense of value proposition here, but it sounds better than any of the DACs I personally have owned in the past (which were all also considerably cheaper).

    I am using 'stand out' here to mean "most prominent / noticeable".

    Positives that stand out:
    * texture/resolution in the midrange
    * punchiness of percussion
    * continue of sound from bass to mids to treble
    * layered music is very cohesive

    Negatives that stand-out - I suspect the integrated amplifier is the main issue here:
    * Instrument separation degrades on busy passages
    * Midrange could be more forward even with the HD650
    * Bass seems like the weakest part of the presentation. It is nicely textured, but HD650 bass delivery could be more controlled.

    Other notes:
    * The delivery is *not* analytical.
    * Music that is mastered with an airy sound does sound airy, but air is not a "in your face" characteristic here.
    * I hear the same 'stabilization' of ~24 hours on the DAC - it seems to express itself as glare in upper mids with associated fakeness in details. This goes away completely.
     
  19. ushanka

    ushanka Facebook Friend

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    It is also worth noting that I put in an order for SW51+, so I'll come back to this and refresh how some of the impressions change with a different amplifier. In 4+ months ... ?
     
  20. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    I like your incoming combo with senns. They’re a keeper for me in terms of price to engagement/performance. Enjoy!
     

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