Spirit of the Market - Guidelines to help buyers and sellers

Discussion in 'For Sale' started by shipsupt, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    What does the group think about adding a suggestion/requirement to the guidelines that when sellers sell an item instead of changing the sale price to "$sold" or similar, they keep the sale price in the original post or title?

    This would help prevent flipping of items purchased here and be a useful resource for market research over time for both buyers and sellers.
     
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  2. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I actually thought we had that in there! Must have been dropped. I'll add it. Under most circumstances we'd like to see the asking price remain so folks can use them as a reference. We don't need to know the negotiated price, that's part of the private sale.

    I have to say, I asked someone today why he removed the asking price and he had a darned good reason for it! So there will be exceptions... this one is a guideline.
     
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  3. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    I'm good with switching this over to just Friends and maybe active Members. Makes me more comfortable offering up deals and paying via gift.
     
  4. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    So far we've allowed it to stay open, but a few more "incidents" and I'd be surprised if "the management" didn't make the change to friends only... It's been quiet this week so fingers crossed it stays that way!
     
  5. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    A recent research endeavor on HF made me realize we need an update to our own For Sale rules to mirror the PayPal User Agreement, which states in relevant part:
    The reason is that items paid for with Personal Payments (i.e. PayPal "Gift") "are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection." Id. Section 13.3.
     
  6. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    Yeah, good advice, but I'd rather leave those details to the folks working out the deal.

    We really don't care if you pay with bitcoin or monopoly money, that's between buyer and seller.

    I'll run it past our small team of 23 lawyers and see what they have to say...
     
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  7. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I think my new goal is to now buy something off the classified ads with Canadian Tire money...
     
  8. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Recent events caused me to review these guidelines. We technically don't prohibit buying gear here with the intent to flip; rather, we prohibit sellers from doing the actual flipping here. It feels as though the community would desire a revision to these guidelines to prohibit the former and not just the latter?
     
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  9. barelyincollege

    barelyincollege Nice Pit Bull

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    Could we have a positive feedback section in addition to the negative feedback one we now have?

    Currently, threads get locked as soon as an item sells, so buyers can't vouch for trustworthy sellers (or vice-versa) post-transaction. Unless this is just an unspoken tenet of the SBAF market, I think it'd be useful to recognize known good participants, too.
     
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  10. PoochZag

    PoochZag The Shadow knows - Friend

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    The "just don't do it here" reads to me that you should not do the buying nor the selling here at SBAF (if flipping). Whereas if you bought on ebay and sold for profit on reddit (or back on ebay...etc) we wouldn't care. But if other people are interpreting it like you mentioned, I agree and a clarification should happen.

    Edit: I now realize Zonto's crux of the point was that this is placed specifically under the "sellers" section only. I would be in favor to make it more clear it applies to either end of a "flip"
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
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  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The idea is that Friends and Contributors are trustworthy and that most transactions should be between such people. The ability to donate a small sum and/or being able to fully engage the community is a good litmus test. There have been hundreds, maybe a thousand, transactions that have gone smoothly without any issue.

    The FS forum here is value-added service for Friends and Contributors to sell stuff with a minimum of hassle. It is not one of the core services like on Audiogon or HF. I have no desire to maintain a database or flood another subforum with positive feedback on transactions.

    • If people feel unsure of sellers, then they should not buy from here. Please go to HF or Audiogon. I actually actively encourage people to go elsewhere.
    • Friends and Contributors can put in their listings "Friends and Contributors ONLY" and let the randos cry about us being elitists. If they cry more, just tell them "it sucks to be you."
    I understand if people buy something and decide to sell it soon after because it wasn't what they expected. But blatant flipping is frowned upon. I'm sure y'all heard the story about @CEE TEE and @shipsupt hanging that poor flipper upside down over the balcony Batman style at the 2014 SF Bay Area meet. Talking about intimidation, from two low-key guys.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  12. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    Marv... Nail on head. I have nothing to add.

    As for flipping elsewhere, we can't control it. If you get a reputation for buying here and selling elsewhere for profit it won't take long before you're found out. If you're found out the community won’t want you buying and selling here. You will loose your privileges. Believe me, we have a group of guys who watch all the for sale areas; HF, Audiogon, eBay, Crazy-Canadian-Audiophile-Mart. They don’t miss much.
     
  13. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I appreciate the proactive comment. I've made a minor edit to the guidelines.
     
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  14. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I am on the same page as @Marvey and my initiial reaction is NO; however I will speak to the geek types to understand if adding something like this is a big deal or really easy and at least give it some consideration... but I wouldn't hold your breath for it. Just being honest!
     
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  15. barelyincollege

    barelyincollege Nice Pit Bull

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    That's alright, Marvey explained why there's no positive feedback section, and I figured that those were the reasons why one wasn't in place as well. I'm fine without one too.
     
  16. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Um... storytime? I never heard about this.
     
  17. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    Flippers get flipped... 'nuf said. |\/|
     
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  18. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    NO FAULT RULE

    Sadly, something has come up recently which requires me to address what happens when something goes wrong with a transaction during shipping. Ninety nine percent of the time, transactions go smoothy; but sometimes shit happens.

    My stance on this, given the special nature of this For Sale forum, is that if something goes wrong, any losses should be absorbed equally between the buyer and seller. It's like "no-fault" insurance in states like Michigan. Gets rid of piece-of-shit El Lay lawyers who want a piece of the action. Well, in this case, SBAF mods just don't have time to do a full Starfleet inquest. And even we did, it's a bitch to figure out what really happened - it comes down to a he-said-she-said situation like in this episode of Star Trek: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/A_Matter_of_Perspective_(episode).

    Bottom line is that I would prefer buyers and sellers here on SBAF to work out disputes yourselves. SBAF mods never signed on to being your arbitators or judges. If you feel have a good case in your favor, or want to warn others of unscrupulous behavior, feel free to present it publicly in the FS feedback forum here: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?forums/buyer-and-seller-feedback-negative.68/ If the mods feel there is a pattern of bad behavior, then we might take action. Otherwise SBAF will stay out of it.

    Finally, don't even bother bringing up transactions that went wrong if any of the following is true:

    1. Transaction was made in another forum or site: Head-Fi, Audiogon, Canuck Audio Mart, eBay. We can only take things at face value of what happens here on SBAF.
    2. Buyer sent funds via PayPay GIFT. Insist on paying the seller the extra 3% if the seller insists on PayPal GIFT. Sending funds as GIFT for a transaction means you give up your Buyer rights as offered to you by PayPal.
    3. Buyer requested that Seller under-declare the value of an item to that Buyer can escape the crushing import taxes of their government. Such requests from the Buyer are unreasonable. I personally would not sell in such instances, even if the Buyer provided me with explicitly written statements of assuming full responsibility if something goes wrong.
    4. Seller offered to under-declare value of item. C'mon, don't be dumb. As a seller, you are responsible for making sure the item arrives in one piece.
    5. Buyer requested that Seller declare item as a warranty return. Again, don't deal with this bullshit. Now you are being asked by the Buyer to commit fraud.
    6. Item was shipped with insufficient insurance which was agreed upon by both parties. You don't insure properly, you don't have a right to bitch or ask anyone here to make things right or take your side.
    One more note: Try to ship with factory packing. There are these mysterous things called G-forces from impacts between objects and the Earth caused by the interplay of gravitons. These gravitons make things accelerate toward the Earth at 9.8 m/s/s. Factory packing is designed with a certain level of give to spread out the force of impacts over time. For example, an Yggdrasil, with the power transformers soldered to the board, will survive a drop from 5' in the factory packaging. In packing that has less give, the transformers might fly out of the board. This is why modern cars are designed with crumple zones.

    Now in terms of the 50/50 no-fault rule (assuming none of the above disqualifying factors are in play), it's just a matter of making things right between friends on SBAF. Do not look to SBAF mods for enforcement. We can guide, but we cannot enforce. We are not the Space Patrol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    P.S. Reporting Procedure:
    1. Please send only one report to one mod and copy maybe two others. Whatever you do, do not send multiple independent reports to mulitple mods. What this does is make us mods waste a shitload of time doing our own indepedent review and research. Yes, we mods do touch base a few times a week to discuss things, but we are not mentally connected via interdimensional space spores.
    2. Provide full disclosure, correspondences, and do not leave out important details. Don't assume we are stupid and will not contact the other side. Don't assume that we won't decide against you.
    3. Understand that moderators are human beings. Do not make our lives unnecessarily worse, by pulling off lame shit as described above. Say that we find out you were complaining about an Audiogon transaction that went wrong, but neglected to leave out this very important piece of information. We are going to be VERY VERY PISSED. When you piss off mods, it makes it hard for them to be objective, much less considerate of your side, or have any sympathy for you.
     
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  20. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    I’ve underdeclared a couple times but the value was like $50 and the buyer fully understood the risks. I actually did lose a package once and could only claim what I declared so I lost money. That was enough to teach me a lesson.

    But not declaring full value on items worth over $1000 is way too risky. Just do it. Complaining about it is just super stupid. Learn your expensive lesson and move on.
     
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